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    #1

    Impact of Christianity on Witchcraft and vice versa

    Originally posted by monsno_leedra
    This is what you must do:


    "When you are quite sure you wish to take this first step, prior to going to bed on three successive nights, making quite sure you are not observed, light a candle and address yourself to it with the following words. This gibberish is, in fact, the Lord's Prayer written out backwards. It is somewhat difficult to pronounce, but struggle through it as best you can. .." A bit further down is the gibberish he has included to aid you in speaking it.

    One of the many things that was going around back then.

    Paul Huson - Mastering Witchcraft (1970-1972)
    Why? Why was this a thing?

    Mystically and mentally, I'm pretty sure that there are far more potent rites that can be set up at minimal risk then reciting gibberish at a candle. The would be practitioner is gonna be too focused on pronunciation to actually focus on the intent of the ritual.

    Thanks for the reference, though. I have an idea now.
    Life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


    Tags: None
    #2
    Re: Blessings to all

    Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
    Why? Why was this a thing?

    Mystically and mentally, I'm pretty sure that there are far more potent rites that can be set up at minimal risk then reciting gibberish at a candle. The would be practitioner is gonna be too focused on pronunciation to actually focus on the intent of the ritual.

    Thanks for the reference, though. I have an idea now.
    Purely speculative on my part but I think it was a combination of the Satanic Scare of the 70's and the idea of the Black Mass. Part of Satanism of that period was reciting the lord prayer backwards and the black mass which could only be delivered by an ordained Catholic priest. You see quite a bit of it in the movies of the time frame as well.

    You had Levayian Satanism, Crowley Satanism and then a few other odd's and ends depending upon where you were and what the church / media was claiming. The human / baby sacrifice was something I very much recall people being accused of. Yet Paul Huson was one of the major authors I recall from the period. If I recall correctly it was during this same time frame when Crowley's daughter was head of the Satanic Witches group that combined Witchcraft and Satanism.

    Ironically when I arrived in Edzell Scotland in 79 there were still elements of this to be found. Recall we had a group of born again Christians on the base and they were hunting out the demons and devils. I was going into my room when I got stopped and told I needed to change rooms as my roommate was a Satanist. Flipped them out when I told them I didn't believe in Satan as I was a practicing Occultist / Witch. So many memories, so many things said and implied.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

    Comment

      #3
      Re: Blessings to all

      The idea is super old and comes from witch belief of the middle ages. Supposedly witches in their convenient with Satan engaged in perversion of Christian rites. Things like the Lord's prayer backwards (it was sometimes said a witch could not say it normally), to trample upon the cross, ect. The Sabbath itself was seen as an inversion of communion. The bit about the Lord's prayer remains in American folk witchcraft and many root workers still swear by it. Other trad witches believe it assists in breaking any covenants with God, which are often made without our consent via baptism or our cultural lens. Modern occultists and especially satanists have expanded and reinvigorated that bit, for example the unbaptism. The satanic panic didn't invent this idea, it's foundational to the elaborated theory of witchcraft which posits in Christian folklore that a conspiracy of witches attempt to undermine godly society by spiritually and physically combating Christ and his people.

      - - - Updated - - -

      Also welcome to the forum Wicca
      They moaned and squealed, and pressed their snouts to the earth. We are sorry, we are sorry.
      Sorry you were caught, I said. Sorry that you thought I was weak, but you were wrong.
      -Madeline Miller, Circe

      Comment

        #4
        Re: Blessings to all

        Originally posted by Corvus View Post
        The idea is super old and comes from witch belief of the middle ages. Supposedly witches in their convenient with Satan engaged in perversion of Christian rites. Things like the Lord's prayer backwards (it was sometimes said a witch could not say it normally), to trample upon the cross, ect. The Sabbath itself was seen as an inversion of communion. The bit about the Lord's prayer remains in American folk witchcraft and many root workers still swear by it. Other trad witches believe it assists in breaking any covenants with God, which are often made without our consent via baptism or our cultural lens. Modern occultists and especially satanists have expanded and reinvigorated that bit, for example the unbaptism. The satanic panic didn't invent this idea, it's foundational to the elaborated theory of witchcraft which posits in Christian folklore that a conspiracy of witches attempt to undermine godly society by spiritually and physically combating Christ and his people.

        - - - Updated - - -

        Also welcome to the forum Wicca
        If I remember correctly it is contained in the Witches Hammer aka The Malleus Maleficarum
        I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

        Comment

          #5
          Re: Blessings to all

          Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
          If I remember correctly it is contained in the Witches Hammer aka The Malleus Maleficarum
          I believe it is too. The hammer was very influential in establishing what and how witches worked. Like second most popular book at the time after the bible influential.

          Maybe we should have a mod copy/merge these posts into a new discussion thread so we don't clog the intro post? There seems to be interest in discussing what Christians believed of witch lore in the past.
          They moaned and squealed, and pressed their snouts to the earth. We are sorry, we are sorry.
          Sorry you were caught, I said. Sorry that you thought I was weak, but you were wrong.
          -Madeline Miller, Circe

          Comment

            #6
            Re: Impact of Christianity on Witchcraft and vice versa

            So the elaborated theory of witchcraft is the belief that cabals of witches existed in society with the express intent of undermining Christian society through their insidious, explicitly diabolical, craft. To medieval Christians witchcraft was always linked to the devil, generally an agreement with him or his spirits, who allowed the witch to conduct their art. It was perceived as a very real conspiracy which was corrupting Christendom from within. There were specific subdivisions too such as societies of Diana.

            This pervasive theme is called the elaborated theory of witchcraft by academics studying the period. A confluence of factors led to its development and codification. The malleus was a large part of standardizing that across a wide area. It's also important to recognize how the witch craze intensified extremely under the protestant reformation. By the time of Kramer it was generally accepted Catholic doctrine that witches didn't really exist, they were either charlatans or deceived by demons. Protestants however bred an environment of fear both with the religious unrest resulting from their movement, and from their changes in doctrine.

            Western witchcraft originates in a Christian context. This is where the origins for our witchy tropes are found, where much of our archetypal image of the witch comes from, and where much of the Christian stereotypes are found. We also see the impact and thread of these witch conspiracies in American evangelicalism and the notion of spiritual warfare. Rather than trusting implicitly that God protects his own, many Christians instead believe that unseen demons and witches are directly opposing them specifically as a test of faith.
            They moaned and squealed, and pressed their snouts to the earth. We are sorry, we are sorry.
            Sorry you were caught, I said. Sorry that you thought I was weak, but you were wrong.
            -Madeline Miller, Circe

            Comment

              #7
              Re: Impact of Christianity on Witchcraft and vice versa

              Christians with their brotherly love burned at the stake an estimated 2,000 witches in about 500 years. We were driven underground and now karma is our sword.

              Christianity and it's sheer hypocrisy are dying while we are seeing a resurgence. It had to happen as they were always speaking lies, while we spoke the truth.

              Comment

                #8
                Re: Impact of Christianity on Witchcraft and vice versa

                Ah yes the monolithic "we" witch cult which is totally historical and present across all pre-christian societies. As though Christians invented hypocrisy and lies. Most victims of the trials were completely innocent or practicing folk traditions, nearly all were not witches in a diabolic nor pagan sense, but Christians themselves.
                They moaned and squealed, and pressed their snouts to the earth. We are sorry, we are sorry.
                Sorry you were caught, I said. Sorry that you thought I was weak, but you were wrong.
                -Madeline Miller, Circe

                Comment

                  #9
                  Re: Impact of Christianity on Witchcraft and vice versa

                  Originally posted by Corvus View Post
                  Western witchcraft originates in a Christian context. This is where the origins for our witchy tropes are found, where much of our archetypal image of the witch comes from, and where much of the Christian stereotypes are found. We also see the impact and thread of these witch conspiracies in American evangelicalism and the notion of spiritual warfare. Rather than trusting implicitly that God protects his own, many Christians instead believe that unseen demons and witches are directly opposing them specifically as a test of faith.
                  To be semi-fair, I can't actually call Heresy on this one quite as hard as I can certain other silly ideas. The story of Job does basically have the LoH give a green light to seriously screwing with some poor bastard as a bet. One would hope he didn't expand that bet to everyone but he does occasionally do weird things.
                  Life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                  Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                  "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                  John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                  "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                  Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                  Comment

                    #10
                    Re: Impact of Christianity on Witchcraft and vice versa

                    Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                    To be semi-fair, I can't actually call Heresy on this one quite as hard as I can certain other silly ideas. The story of Job does basically have the LoH give a green light to seriously screwing with some poor bastard as a bet. One would hope he didn't expand that bet to everyone but he does occasionally do weird things.
                    I don't disagree. Not a huge fan of the duplicity OT God sometimes displays. The argument for some is that Christ changed a lot and this type of bargaining is basically gone. Still, there are some American Christians that seem to live in a grand fantasy epic.
                    They moaned and squealed, and pressed their snouts to the earth. We are sorry, we are sorry.
                    Sorry you were caught, I said. Sorry that you thought I was weak, but you were wrong.
                    -Madeline Miller, Circe

                    Comment

                      #11
                      Re: Impact of Christianity on Witchcraft and vice versa

                      Originally posted by Corvus View Post
                      I don't disagree. Not a huge fan of the duplicity OT God sometimes displays. The argument for some is that Christ changed a lot and this type of bargaining is basically gone. Still, there are some American Christians that seem to live in a grand fantasy epic.
                      I'm inclined to think it's more a case of Christianity being more dualist than Judaism so the Devil is less inclined to make bets with the LoH when you're dealing with a Christian narrative (he'd just attack Job outright until he was stopped) than a heavenly prosecutor in a Judaic tale would. As the OT is largely* inherited from Judaism, OT LoH doesn't have the convenient scapegoat already written in that he's got in the NT.

                      * I know enough Christians who'd tell me that the OT is effectively the Torah. I'm relatively sure that while the two books are similar, there will be a number of distinctions of varying subtlety but I haven't read either in enough detail to say this with certainty.
                      Life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                      Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                      "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                      John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                      "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                      Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                      Comment

                        #12
                        Re: Impact of Christianity on Witchcraft and vice versa

                        Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                        I'm inclined to think it's more a case of Christianity being more dualist than Judaism so the Devil is less inclined to make bets with the LoH when you're dealing with a Christian narrative (he'd just attack Job outright until he was stopped) than a heavenly prosecutor in a Judaic tale would. As the OT is largely* inherited from Judaism, OT LoH doesn't have the convenient scapegoat already written in that he's got in the NT.

                        * I know enough Christians who'd tell me that the OT is effectively the Torah. I'm relatively sure that while the two books are similar, there will be a number of distinctions of varying subtlety but I haven't read either in enough detail to say this with certainty.
                        The Torah is the OT, but not the KJV. The British edited out a lot of books. The Torah contains the books of Macabees, etc. which are in the LV OT but not the KJV.
                        sigpic
                        Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

                        Comment

                          #13
                          Re: Impact of Christianity on Witchcraft and vice versa

                          Witchcrafts effect on christianity being that, today, six in ten self identifying christians (on average) hold to what they know are heretical "new age" beliefs. The number is higher for catholics and lower for protestants. Higher for the young and lower for the old. The issue has been a pet peeve of christian religious leaders, of which there are fewer and fewer, as seemingly no one wants to carry the torch forward when these other obviously appealing alternatives to a traditional faith exist.

                          Ironically, the demographic you'll find the most de jure contemporary pagans in, is the christian demographic.
                          Last edited by Rhythm; 04 Oct 2023, 21:40.

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