The Heart- the source of all pain?

[Corvus]

Re: The Heart- the source of all pain?

Yeah I understand what you mean, I guess I just mean that in the human world, there is no such thing as -pure- logic because our values, our perceptions, and our emotions vary. And while it might seem -hypothetically- possible to apply pure logic to a situation, realistically it's about as possible as communism working. Human nature gets in the way.

Okay let's say its an individual's logic and this individual has a resonably high iq but is not able to feel compassion, sorrow, happiness, anger, fear, ect. I understand this veiw it is obviously possible to have perfect logic as we are human but without emotions clouding, interfering, or otherwise swaying our personal logic our decisions would make more sense and be more practical.

[KashakuTatsu]

Re: The Heart- the source of all pain?

Can't say I feel anything with urges. When the body makes me eat I don't feel hunger it just does. If I ate only when I felt hunger I'd eat like once a week if that. Sometimes if the shakes are preventing me from doing something (drawing, my job, etc) I'll eat something solely to stop them not cause I feel hungry, perhaps could be said I feel irritated at those times. Hence mentioning the black outs and doing things I'm unaware of on a conscious level. Think randomly throwing up. You're sitting watching tv, feeling fine, then the body just throws up with no feeling/warning/forethought. You can't stop it from doing what it wants, sometimes it almost feels like it has a separate brain. lol

and if the body dictates the absolute truth is to live (based on experiences that no matter how much you try to stop it from doing what it needs to in order to survive it still does it) then it's not logical to let the species or self to die off no matter if it's a judgment call for others or not. Since ya did a (vulcan?), they still procreated, ate and did things for their survival lol. =p

[B. de Corbin]

Re: The Heart- the source of all pain?

Yes - that's it in a nutshell.

[DanieMarie]

Re: The Heart- the source of all pain?

Yeah I understand what you mean, I guess I just mean that in the human world, there is no such thing as -pure- logic because our values, our perceptions, and our emotions vary. And while it might seem -hypothetically- possible to apply pure logic to a situation, realistically it's about as possible as communism working. Human nature gets in the way.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: The Heart- the source of all pain?

Actually, formal logic follows very strict rules, like math (although there are diffeent "strains" of logic, just as there are different "strains" of math - Euclidian geometry vs. non-Euclidian geomtry, for instance). But it doesn't lead to inevitable truths because, in the BIG questions, value judgements inevitably come into play, and values really aren't entirely subject to logic (trying to make value judgements logical inevitably results in circular thinking).

In common language, though, "logical" often means "the way I see it," and there you'll get a lot of conflict.

What formal logic is really good at - even if it doesn't allow you to arrive at absolue truth - is in rooting out errors due to lack of information, misinformation, and prejudgements. A logical thinker would never state that women are less rational than men, except on the basis of averages (if the averages actually show that - I don't know that they do), and the logical thinker would also know that averages tell you nothing about any individual. A woman may be less rational than a man, but a logical thinker would have to gather data specific to that particular woman and to that particular man in order to know... and even then, there are different types of rational (which might be valued in different ways by different thinkers, leading to false conclusions), so the exact meaning of "rational" as used in that particular context, would have to be specified.

An example might be whether to buy a laptop computer for a kid's 10th birthday or put the money away to pay for college. Perfectly logical, sound arguments can be presented for both positions. The one that is chosen will depend on whether one values the child's here and now more or less than the child's then and there.

In short, doing logic is a lot like doing science (science is based on formal logic anyway...)

[thalassa]

Re: The Heart- the source of all pain?

...plus, emotions are very much connected to instinct. That "feeling" you get that someone is bad news--it manifests as dislike, which is an "emotion". It doesn't mean that your brain and your body don't occasionally act out of accord...but not all feelings are conscious ones either (or logical).

[DanieMarie]

Re: The Heart- the source of all pain?

LOL- maybe. But you're still stuck wih the problem of whether logic has any purpose without emotion behind it.

Personally, I find logic to be very useful, but emotion is what gives me a reason to use it.

Yep.

Also, I find logic is kind of subjective. It's supposed to be an objective quality, but what some people (individuals, cultures, women, men) find logical, others may not. Different people seem to think in different ways. The most obvious example I can think of is the conflicts you sometimes have between women and men. I hear from men alllll the time that women aren't rational, and while we do use our emotional qualities a little more openly, we don't often find men all that rational either (especially not as "rational" as they often think they are).

Often, it pretty much boils down to what feels right given a particular situation. You can weigh your options (and should), but there's something to be said for reading the feelings of others and trusting your gut as well.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: The Heart- the source of all pain?

LOL- maybe. But you're still stuck wih the problem of whether logic has any purpose without emotion behind it.

Personally, I find logic to be very useful, but emotion is what gives me a reason to use it.

[Corvus]

Re: The Heart- the source of all pain?

I have to agree with kashaku tatsu because almost this exact thing has happened with me (including the blackout stuff) in my opinion logic is much better than emotion not to mention easier to understand.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: The Heart- the source of all pain?

Hmmm... the "urge" to survive? Or the "urge" to eat?

Subjectively, when you experience an "urge," what are you feeling? These urges express themselves subjectively as feelings - emotions.

From the point of view of pure logic, there is no reason to survive, or to continue the species.

If I am wrong in this, here's the test...

Give me a foundation premise for a logical argument that the species should continue which does not involve a value judgement based on what one feels.

[KashakuTatsu]

Re: The Heart- the source of all pain?

It wouldn't be logical to let children die, it would go against the instinct to survive (which I have found that supersedes emotion). You don't need to give emotional love to a child, just tend the physical needs till it can survive on it's own. The type of adult it'll grow into may not be a loving being, but it'll be grown. You don't need to enjoy the meal, but the body likes to go "you will eat" even if your emotions say no, it becomes again driven on instinct. I've been struggling with a sort of emotional anorexia for a year (on and off my whole life really), emotions got so out of sorts that I stop wanting to eat, but eventually my body "blacks out" my mental and I find myself getting food and eating without the forethought of getting it. There is a huge probability that I will throw it back up, but doesn't stop the body from trying again. I can mentally go "don't eat that, I'm allergic" and body will go get it and eat going "need to eat and this is all there is". Maybe mental black outs aren't normal, but they do happen for me. And as I found out over and over again, your significant others can not love you, even feel hate for you, and still perform the act of coupling cause that's what hormones dictate and you're conveniently there.

Emotions have not proved a driving point, in fact I think they've proven a stagnator. Until I shut off emotions I had no motivation to get out of bed let alone do anything outside the home. I think I slept or cried most of last year away, I was content to let myself die. I didn't want to deal with the pain or drama of this world anymore. I still question if it's worth it, but my instinct to survive keeps over-riding the emotional want to leave.

At some point recently my emotions cut off and I started to function solely on instinct. If my body says something I follow from eating (since I don't get hunger pains I have to listen when my body shakes and goes "feed me") to getting inked. I don't really have a need to be social, I could not leave home for weeks except to go to work and be content with it. It can be a relief cause the social anxiety doesn't trigger unless someone tries to come over and I have to tell them to leave. Have to say my art has gotten exponentially better since I have dissociated. I've followed my emotions for most of my life, but I deem it not worth it after how it ended up. I do nothing now unless logically thought out.

I know people will say this is unhealthy and I can't possibly be happy without emotion, but there is a lack of pain, anxiety attacks stopped and I no longer crumble into pieces crying at the smallest thing anymore. I would say this is much healthier than the alternative.

[ceragonstarfire]

Re: The Heart- the source of all pain?

Some ancient cultures (and I seemed to remember the ancient Hebrews were included in this, although I can't remember my source) believed that the source of the emotions was in the bowel.
Better go easy on the laxatives then!

lol that is so funny! that is actually true. the bowels ARE controlled by emotions. it we are upset, our bowels get upset.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: The Heart- the source of all pain?

Here's a way of thinking about it:

Part 1

Throughout the evolution of the species, certain traits - mental traits - developed and propagated through the population because they provided some sort of survival advantage.

For example, a human group which did not have the mental hardware which generates a feeling of attachment to infants (subjectively felt as "love") would not provide the care and nurturing which human infants need in order to survive and thrive. They'd be likely to leave the kid laying in the bushes when they moved on, or when the kid became annoying by crying - this group would quickly die out, and their genetic traits would die out.

Emotions can be abstracted to two basic principles - attracion and repulsion; one either feels inclined to seek something out, or to avoid something. We either want, or we want not. For example: Fear = repulsion, love = attraction.

The reason that no location can be found for the source of these feelings is that they are spread throughout our bodies, scribbled out in the genes in every single cell. What we call emotions when we experience them subjectively are what we call instincts when we observe them in animals - they are "body knowledge" - the way our bodies instruct us to act.

This is sometimes a little tricky to see because in many animals (such as honey bees) the instincts (or emotional range) are so limited that responses to environmental events can be very accurately predicted.

However, humans have such a wide range of possible behaviours - some of which are directly contradictory to others - that prediction becomes very difficult (except in terms of averages). This is what makes humans so adaptable that they have been able to fill the globe with their presence. You'll never find honey beel living in the polar regions.

Part 2

If some kind of super rational race were to develop (Vulcans?) which had succeeded in completely removing emotions from the self, relying entirely on logic, what would they do?

The answer is: Absolutely nothing. They would die out within one generation.

The reason why is that, without emotion to attach a postivie or negative value to things (to want, or to want not) every possiblity would be exactly equal.

There would be no point in growing food - starving to death or eating a decent meal would be exactly equal (it wouldn't "feel good" to have food in the belly, nor would it "feel bad" to have an empty stomac).

Wouldn't bother with education - knowledge and ignorance would be exactly equal.

Wouldn't take care of children - whether they live or die would be exactly equal.

Would never develop a legal system - justice and injustice would be exactly equal.

And on and on and on into infinity.

Love and pain are the price we pay for existing. I consider it a fair deal.

[FantasyWitch]

Re: The Heart- the source of all pain?

As someone who wears her heart very loudly on her sleeve I believe the heart is required on so many levels. Yes it is confusing and god it hurts so much sometimes but it is a requirement.
If I didn't have such passion for my art work I wouldn't still be trying to get into art school (which is really really difficult by the way) again. My heart drives me to do the things that make me most happy, the things that I love.
When it comes to people it is more tricky for me. I am an all or nothing type of person, so when I feel love for someone I feel it so much it hurts and it takes me a long time to let go of it. BUT that pain when it doesn't happen reminds me that I am alive. It is good to be hurt because it gives you the motivation to stand back up again. X

[CttCJim]

Re: The Heart- the source of all pain?

I'm not entirely certain that human beings that literally have no emotion are capable of much in the way of motivation.

I fully agree. I have a friend who literally admits to never having loved anything in his life. Based on this and other things I've discussed with him, I believe him to be a borderline sociopath. He's highly intelligent, but works a grocery job, because his motivation in life is to simply make enough money to survive. He is motivated mostly by basic needs.
He's also my best friend and a really great guy. Just for the record. But yeah, if he gave a damn he'd be capable of much, much more.