Westboro and Liz Taylor's Funeral

[Caelia]

Re: Westboro and Liz Taylor's Funeral

From what I understand from an interview on NPR, they pay for all their protests/travels out of their own pocket...from the money they make as lawyers. Apparently they have one of the most successful law firms in KC...which means that as long as people are willing to hire them, they have the funding to do their thing.

Which I'm finding hard since I'm positive all have been disbarred. I know the head has been at the very least.

[thalassa]

Re: Westboro and Liz Taylor's Funeral

Why no one in my home state will do the following I will never understand:

1. Wait 'til they're off at some funeral picketing (not hard to find out these days).

2. Find out when they'll return (again, not very hard).

3. Picket the hell out of them as they arrive home (after getting the proper legal clearance).

4. Repeat.

I understand it's a bit of a drive, possibility of legal probs, trouble getting off work at the right time, but it will get annoying after a while. My alma mater has figured out to counter-protest during their annual Drag Show hosted by the campus GLBT Alliance. They have done it every year. However, even the WBC has figured out when they're not welcome.

From what I understand from an interview on NPR, they pay for all their protests/travels out of their own pocket...from the money they make as lawyers. Apparently they have one of the most successful law firms in KC...which means that as long as people are willing to hire them, they have the funding to do their thing.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Westboro and Liz Taylor's Funeral

Freedom of expression implies the freedom to be offended--not the freedom from offense. And in this country, freedom of expression includes the freedom to peaceably assemble. They get permits and they protest on public land in full accordance with community statues. If anything, the protesters that come and protest them cause the bigger ruckus (I've actually been at events/locations that were the recipient of their presence). Their "congregation" is only a handful of people (lawyers to be specific)--las time I checked, about 60 people (at the "protests" I've seen, they've only had 5-10 people present, but 10-100x that many to protest them). Either way, its quite easy for communities to relegatesuch protests to places where funeral processions never even see them by requiring permits and such and having ordinances for where demonstrations can occur.

I guess maybe I'm having trouble because I don't know how it actually works. In the global press it always seems like they're screaming outside across the street (also technically public land) from the funeral home, but from what you're saying that's not the case?

I know what you mean about counter protests as well. My friend wrote and directed a play about them in Toronto that got big press in Canada, and of course they HATED it and were going to go picket it, which he was thrilled about because it would be like part of the show. The anti-protest movement also got huge though and he was worried that -they- would cause problems. Unfortunately they never made it because they also decided to go protest a funeral while they were in Canada and border control didn't let them in....in all fairness it was a funeral for a very shocking murder, in which a man was randomly beheaded on a Greyhound bus, and the only reason they were going to picket it was because of this play, because "canada is a country of sodomites and god hates Canada"...my friend is gay. Also similar things happen with Neo-Nazi rallies here. As much as I hate them, they're careful to do things properly, but the far-left always shows up and often starts a riot.

---------- Post added at 11:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 AM ----------

And I don't think Canada's not allowing Westboro into the country to picket funerals is undemocratic (I think they've been barred entry a few times). While I think citizens and legal residents should be allowed to protest (given they're not being disruptive) I don't think that rights of Canadians have to be granted to citizens/residents of a FOREIGN country. The members of Westboro are American citizens and residents and have no say about what happens in Canada. I'm just bringing it up because it's come up in discussions with (Canadian) friends. It's been brought up a lot in debates about freedom of speech and stuff. I think it would be a better case if there were a Canadian group that was trying to do the same thing and was barred, but as far as I know there isn't one.

[Caelia]

Re: Westboro and Liz Taylor's Funeral

Why no one in my home state will do the following I will never understand:

1. Wait 'til they're off at some funeral picketing (not hard to find out these days).

2. Find out when they'll return (again, not very hard).

3. Picket the hell out of them as they arrive home (after getting the proper legal clearance).

4. Repeat.

I understand it's a bit of a drive, possibility of legal probs, trouble getting off work at the right time, but it will get annoying after a while. My alma mater has figured out to counter-protest during their annual Drag Show hosted by the campus GLBT Alliance. They have done it every year. However, even the WBC has figured out when they're not welcome.

[thalassa]

Re: Westboro and Liz Taylor's Funeral

I think they can say whatever they want. They're free to publish all the hate-filled crap they want on the internet, distribute pamphlets, whatever. But protesting a funeral is DISRUPTIVE behaviour. I would't call it a peaceful protest, because it is deeply disruptive to people's lives. If you blocked traffic, you'd be asked to move along, public place or not. This is just as disruptive.

Freedom of expression implies the freedom to be offended--not the freedom from offense. And in this country, freedom of expression includes the freedom to peaceably assemble. They get permits and they protest on public land in full accordance with community statues. If anything, the protesters that come and protest them cause the bigger ruckus (I've actually been at events/locations that were the recipient of their presence). Their "congregation" is only a handful of people (lawyers to be specific)--las time I checked, about 60 people (at the "protests" I've seen, they've only had 5-10 people present, but 10-100x that many to protest them). Either way, its quite easy for communities to relegatesuch protests to places where funeral processions never even see them by requiring permits and such and having ordinances for where demonstrations can occur.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Westboro and Liz Taylor's Funeral

I think they can say whatever they want. They're free to publish all the hate-filled crap they want on the internet, distribute pamphlets, whatever. But protesting a funeral is DISRUPTIVE behaviour. I would't call it a peaceful protest, because it is deeply disruptive to people's lives. If you blocked traffic, you'd be asked to move along, public place or not. This is just as disruptive.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Re: Westboro and Liz Taylor's Funeral

I think freedom to protest in a public avenue and the "freedom" to protest a PRIVATE EVENT are different things. What about peoples right to grieve in peace? Should't they get some protection?

They do protest in the public avenue. Never on private property unless the property owner gives permission.

I'm glad I live here.....I think it's just a difference of values. I guess given how Americans view the world we probably have less freedom, but we feel we have more.

Realize, I'm not defending their words, but I will defend their right to say them.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Westboro and Liz Taylor's Funeral

I think freedom to protest in a public avenue and the "freedom" to protest a PRIVATE EVENT are different things. What about peoples right to grieve in peace? Should't they get some protection?

I'm glad I live here.....I think it's just a difference of values. I guess given how Americans view the world we probably have less freedom, but we feel we have more.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Re: Westboro and Liz Taylor's Funeral

I can understand that, but freedom of assembly also doesn't allow you to do whatever the hell you want. If you're disturbing the peace, you're crossing a legal line.

Freedom of Assembly is the right to protest. Is it uncomfortable and hurt people's feelings? Yes. Is it offensive? Yes. Are they PEACEFULLY protesting (not throwing things at people, breaking other people's property)? Unfortunately Yes.


The problem is, no where in the Constitution does it protect me from being offended, but it does give me the right to be offensive. Which is something a lot of people just do not get.

[Roknrol]

Re: Westboro and Liz Taylor's Funeral

It's funny how times change...

The first Christian emperor's (Constantine's) son (Constans) was openly gay - it's one of the reasons why the Roman legions (a bunch of pagans collected from across the empire) didn't like him, overthrew him, and eventually had him assassinated.

Give them enough time and things go full circle, I guess.

Well, WBC (I'm sure) would say that out of damnation comes salvation - it was required for Christianity to accept homosexuality at the time, but that has led rise to the WBC.

Kind of like how the VP of PETA is diabetic - she says that she needs to take her insulin (which is tested on animals) so that she can save other animals. It's just another form of hypocrisy...

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Westboro and Liz Taylor's Funeral

It's funny how times change...

The first Christian emperor's (Constantine's) son (Constans) was openly gay - it's one of the reasons why the Roman legions (a bunch of pagans collected from across the empire) didn't like him, overthrew him, and eventually had him assassinated.

Give them enough time and things go full circle, I guess.

[PharaohKatt]

Re: Westboro and Liz Taylor's Funeral

It makes me so angry. I saw an ep of John Saffran with the WBC on it, and the glee in the kids' eyes when they talked about how American was damned... Makes me sick to my stomach

[DanieMarie]

Re: Westboro and Liz Taylor's Funeral

It's not just Freedom of Speech but Freedom of Assembly.

I can understand that, but freedom of assembly also doesn't allow you to do whatever the hell you want. If you're disturbing the peace, you're crossing a legal line.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Re: Westboro and Liz Taylor's Funeral

I'm actually really glad you can't picket funerals like that here and in Canada. Some critics say it violates our freedom of speech laws but I disagree. Freedom of speech DOES NOT mean freedom of action. You're free to spout all the hate you want, but you can't disturb the peace, and picketing a funeral is considered disturbing the peace as much as if you were publicly drunk (in Canada...in Germany being publicly drunk is much less offensive than picketing a funeral lol). Anyway, the point is that you can't just DO whatever you want. There are all sorts of laws that dictate what you can and can't do in public. In Canada you can't drink in public, or sunbathe nude (in most places). In Germany you'll get fined if you jaywalk. And in both places, you can't picket funerals because, it's not what's said, it's the actions that disrupt other aspects of public life.

It's not just Freedom of Speech but Freedom of Assembly.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Westboro and Liz Taylor's Funeral

I'm actually really glad you can't picket funerals like that here and in Canada. Some critics say it violates our freedom of speech laws but I disagree. Freedom of speech DOES NOT mean freedom of action. You're free to spout all the hate you want, but you can't disturb the peace, and picketing a funeral is considered disturbing the peace as much as if you were publicly drunk (in Canada...in Germany being publicly drunk is much less offensive than picketing a funeral lol). Anyway, the point is that you can't just DO whatever you want. There are all sorts of laws that dictate what you can and can't do in public. In Canada you can't drink in public, or sunbathe nude (in most places). In Germany you'll get fined if you jaywalk. And in both places, you can't picket funerals because, it's not what's said, it's the actions that disrupt other aspects of public life.