Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

[Dez]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

Zuccotti park is not Idaho and it is not Toronto.

Why would I bother with links? It's not like you're going to believe them anyway.

True...it's not. My BIL and SIL live in NY and have been active there. If I lived in a major urban area, I feel strongly enough about this that I would as well. As is, I believe that my contribution is equally important, if not more so, because it shows that this isn't just a few crazy liberals on the coasts.

I'm honestly starting to wonder the same thing...why have I provided the plethora of links so far in this thread? You are obviously so justified in your own opinion that you will listen to nothing that disagrees.

It's pointless to argue with someone who carries a deeply-held belief, whatever direction. All it does is more deeply polarize the issue.

I didn't start this thread as a debate, I started it because I know that myself and others on this forum are deeply interested in what is going on, if not actively participating. If this bothers you, you do not need to continue to contribute to this thread if you don't want to. If you feel that these protests are a travesty, and the police have not mishandled them in any way, then you are free to start a thread in debates.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

Zuccotti park is not Idaho and it is not Toronto.

Freedom of speech and freedom of PEACEFUL assembly is a constitutional right.


The moment it crosses into inciting a riot, and an all out riot, it is no longer a constitutional right.


Why would I bother with links? It's not like you're going to believe them anyway.

---------- Post added at 12:46 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:41 AM ----------

LGR, IF you have all these "first hand accounts", link them, please. Don't just claim they exist. Proof, please.

Really?

You're watching and you haven't seen anything like it?

You haven't seen the filth in Zuccotti park?

You haven't seen the reports of rape?

You haven't seen the vandalism?

You didn't see the spray paint of KILL THE COPS in Oakland?

The signs saying "Eat the Rich"?

Michael Moore claiming he's not part of the 1%?





Really? You haven't seen any of that?





What the heck are you watching?

[cesara]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

I just saw this clip of a Jewish Occupier in Toronto discussing the 'anti-semitic' claims of some mainstream media sources....

http://youtu.be/BnCci0HN21U

[cesara]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

The link Az posts is very good.....

Sorry about your family's experiences, but it seems they aren't indicative of an anti-semetic current from within OWS. I truly believe any anti-semitic sentiment is either from fringe groups, or smear tactics.....

[AzazelEblis]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

Well lets look them up shall we?

http://mediamatters.org/

Yeah really centrist there right?

So centrist and so middle of the road?



Conservative Misinformation.

You mean like first hand accounts of people being raped during Occupy and being urged not to report it to police?

You mean like first hand accounts of people being pelted with bottles trying to leave their homes?

You mean like first hand accounts of people being screamed at, "MY AMERICA ISN'T FOR JEWS?"

You mean like film of Occupiers setting bonfires? Breaking windows? Surging into a dock?

Look I'm NOT A CONSERVATIVE.

But I will be damned if I can get behind an organization that doesn't even have the decency to say WHAT IT'S ABOUT in BLACK AND WHITE without TELLING MY COUSINS with their 5 year old child that THEY HAVE NO BUSINESS IN AMERICA!

I never said anything about this group being "Centrist". In fact, the statement that they wanted a "Liberal Tea Party" should rather clue you in to the contrary.

And hey;

http://www.jweekly.com/article/full/63339/statement-from-jewish-liberals-says-occupy-wall-street-not-anti-semitic/

[Dez]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

Azazel, this is the first I've heard of MediaMatters, but even if they started a seed(or are trying to hijack), this has gotten a heck of a lot bigger then them. They aren't telling us, or Boise, or Portland, or SLC, what to do, or I would have heard about them in one of the calls.

LGR, IF you have all these "first hand accounts", link them, please. Don't just claim they exist. Proof, please.

Honestly, all that you seem to be saying is that you have family that had a bad experience with a couple of crazy asshat protesters, and now you think the whole thing is El Diablo.

I have seen nothing like that, at all, in the goings on here, or the plethora of live feeds I've watched, or the open calls between groups trying to insure that people are doing the right thing, behaving themselves, etc, etc, etc, etc.

I'm tired of barely being able to feed my family, sitting under a mountain of debt for half an education, and being told by the government that it's somehow "my own fault", when I've done EVERYTHING RIGHT. EVERYTHING they've been telling us to do, FOR YEARS, to succeed. Something is SERIOUSLY WRONG in our nation. And me, and plenty of others like me, are TIRED of being ignored for being quiet and polite. SOMETHING has got to give, and I'm sick and tired of people coming along and trying to turn a perfectly normal movement trying to speak up into some kind of crazy communist conspiracy.

You know what, I take that back. I honestly don't care if socialists and communists are involved, if I can put bread on my table at the end of the day...and if things keep going the way they are, I won't be able to. What I am trying to do is support freedom of speech, and get attention to the fact that there is in increasing disparity in who has money in our nation, supported by greedy practices on par with the Gilded Age robber barons. I'm trying to help this be peaceful, and NOW, before it explodes and there is actually the blood on the streets you're all paranoid about.

Because trust me, if people keep trying to shut up the protesters who are trying their best to do this in a peaceful, organized way, there will be actual riots. If food prices keep going up, as no one can find jobs, what jobs are available can't feed a family, and so many families are on Food Stamps that Republican politicians are actually starting to claim that's proof we need to get rid of the program, there will be hell to pay.

If people who are struggling in America are painted into a corner, they will fight back, and it will get ugly. Why? Because at that point they will have nothing to lose. They French Revolution was brewing for years, but the Women's March on the Bastille that started the whole thing? That started with a group of women on a street corner who could no longer buy bread to feed their children. The government of France had allowed taxing and prices to rise again, and called those who couldn't feed their families "lazy".

Me, and those like myself are trying desperately to help these protests be a voice, and a pressure valve on the building dissatisfaction, while not letting the movement be hijacked by the sorts of extremest groups you're claiming are running this.

I live in a town where more then one in eight are on foodstamps, the number of people on foodstamps in Idaho is rising so steeply that the government is having trouble keeping up. The general response? "You people aren't trying hard enough, you're lazy, and are just trying to milk the system" There are no jobs, and what jobs there are, are shit. It is a case of blaming the messenger. The local majority church now is refusing to help people because there is such a need, telling people that it's "unfair" to call upon the church for aid, even as they still demand at least 10% of their member's income, which in the case of many families I know would be the difference between needing help or not. They are told that they need to stay out of debt, yet get an education, and given examples of people who were able to do that 40 years ago, when tuition was less then half what it is now, and people were able to find an entry-level job (or heck, a factory job with a high school diploma), that could lead to owning your own home. If they can't do it? Their fault. They should be ashamed. Never mind there's no room to save when you barely make ends meet, if that. Students at the local church-run school are afraid to get involved in protests, because the local police will arrest or harass more then five or six students standing peacefully on a street corner, with no political or social intent, reporting them to the school for disciplinary action.

If people refuse to listen, and keep trying to blame the messengers, then this is going to turn into the crises you're trying to claim it already is, whether we want it to or not. At least we're actually doing something, instead of just talking about it. The last election, people kept talking about how few young people vote, and how they blog instead of actually being politically active. Here they are...they've hit a breaking point, and no one likes what they have to say. Surprise, surprise.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

Well lets look them up shall we?

http://mediamatters.org/

Yeah really centrist there right?

So centrist and so middle of the road?

Media Matters for America is a Web-based, not-for-profit, 501(c)(3) progressive research and information center dedicated to comprehensively monitoring, analyzing, and correcting conservative misinformation in the U.S. media.

Conservative Misinformation.

You mean like first hand accounts of people being raped during Occupy and being urged not to report it to police?

You mean like first hand accounts of people being pelted with bottles trying to leave their homes?

You mean like first hand accounts of people being screamed at, "MY AMERICA ISN'T FOR JEWS?"

You mean like film of Occupiers setting bonfires? Breaking windows? Surging into a dock?

Look I'm NOT A CONSERVATIVE.

But I will be damned if I can get behind an organization that doesn't even have the decency to say WHAT IT'S ABOUT in BLACK AND WHITE without TELLING MY COUSINS with their 5 year old child that THEY HAVE NO BUSINESS IN AMERICA!

[AzazelEblis]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

The movement is inspired by uprisings in Egypt, Tunisia, Spain, Greece, Italy and the UK, and aims to expose how the richest 1% of people who are writing the rules of the global economy and are imposing an agenda of neoliberalism and economic inequality.

(emphasis mine)

Neoliberal Economic policies - deregulate, lower taxes, free trade... all those things that Economists actually support. Hence, why both parties partake of the madness which exports jobs and lowers living standards.

LGR, do you really take those Afrocentrists seriously? The movement is a congealing of everything from US Uncut, Anonymous-IRL, Black Power groups, Ron Paul supporters, student debt activists, military vet groups, a smattering of hippies from the 60s who are happy to be back in action, and everything in between. Initially started by the Canadian group MediaMatters, the intent from the beginning was to have a "Liberal Tea Party," though supporters generally dislike that premise.

In true Liberal fashion, they welcome everyone, and sat down for weeks to hash out exactly what they were about. I could not be any more pleased with their results - hoping to replace Neoliberal Economic policies with something more feasible for people.

The free market's a great thing, it has a role to play. But the fact is, that if we leave everything to the free market to decide, our granchildren will be dead before the market really levels out on that: and this assumes that nothing else changes. Can we wait that many generations for jobs to return to the US?

So far, the biggest criticism I have of the movement is that they use "Consensus Based Decision Making" for groups in which a concensus is almost impossible simply from their size.

Socialism? Communism? Lay off the Faux News. Tariffs aren't Communist. We've had a more Progressive Income Tax before, and done well with it. Reinstating the Glass-Steagall Act has nothing to do with Socialism. Better yet, the Fairness Doctrine in Media would keep this madness from manifesting quite so readily. Repealing the Citizens' United court decision, even by Constitutional Ammendment if necessary, has nothing to do with Anti-Semitism.

In fact, I suggest we further follow the writings of Thomas Jefferson, where he suggests that we ought to protect "Infant Industries". Globalization and Free Trade are not new ideas. Last time, it came with slaves and huge ships, rather than wires and cellphones.

If bankers are afraid? Good. Maybe, they'll be more mindful of selling turd-funds to our retirement accounts, while betting against them at the same time. Maybe, they'll quit running on some of that "more risk=more profit!!" mentality. Maybe, just maybe... they'll think twice about begging for a second bailout inside of a year, and then giving out shamefully large bonuses *again*, while the average worker takes a pay cut to keep their job.

I could go down a list of them with whom I am dissatisfied with our Justice system's results. Causing economic harm can get you or me declared as enemy combatants in the war on terror - these guys easily meet the $10k benchmark laid out in the PATRIOT ACT.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

Mindy, I don't htink you need to worry about a few fringe groups who have leeched on to the movement -- I would have expected you would know that? It's kind of like saying all xtians are like westboro....it just ain't so..

It's not a few fringe groups.

I have family that lives right next to Zuccotti park and has watched the protests since the first day.

It's not a few fringe groups.

[cesara]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

They are sitting in on private property that is owned by the people they are protesting.

I see signs calling for socialism and communism as how some there want things done.

I see signs calling for expulsion of Jews, not "just Zionists" but the Jewish Bankers.

My family lived through this once already, I listened to the nightmares of what happened.

Please comprehend why I might be a bit worried.

Mindy, I don't htink you need to worry about a few fringe groups who have leeched on to the movement -- I would have expected you would know that? It's kind of like saying all xtians are like westboro....it just ain't so..

[Dez]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

Heh, point.

I think more then anything people started to hit a breaking point.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

LOL - yeah, but...

Were people unaware of this previously? I don't know if a protest can wake the dead...

[Dez]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

Just out of curiosity, what were the protesters attempting to accomplish ( i.e. What was their intended outcome)?

The protesters are trying to bring attention to the idea that large corporations are successfully taking over our nation.

Between 1890 and the 1930's a number of laws were put in place because people were rioting over monopolies, working conditions, being unable to work a livable wage, and government and business practices which insured that almost all of the money made by a corporation became concentrated in a handful of individuals at the top. Starting in the 70's, those laws began to be removed or replaced, leading to an increasing disparity between the massive amounts of money large companies were making, and the wage of the average employee, which was not keeping up with cost of living. Here is an great example of the statistics involved, complete with graphs and charts: http://www.businessinsider.com/what-...t-2011-10?op=1

It is also becoming increasingly obvious that large companies are not only using funding for political campaigns to promote the politicians who will protect their interests, but are walking away from the current financial crisis they caused (and the government bailed them out of)with millions.

In response, the Occupy Wall Street movement is trying to draw attention to the problem. They are not only protesting, but encouraging people to switch their money from large banks to smaller local credit unions, decentralizing funds(which several people have now been arrested for doing). They are also encouraging things like not giving the big stores fourth quarter profits by spending your holiday money on items by local craftsmen, small local stores, or making things yourself. I am also part of a team trying to create a list of local food resources and co-ops, to help local protesters and sympathizers avoid spending money at large chain stores and restaurants.

While it is difficult to prevent a few assholes from showing up at a protest, in general America is not hearing about the quiet yet peaceful protests going on in over forty American cities right now, as well as sympathizers gathering together all over the world. They are not hearing about Goldman Sachs donating millions to the NYPD before arrests started in NY. Another good example of the misrepresentation going on by groups like Fox News would be this article by a CNBC contributor, MSNBC commentator and former White House aide on his experience going to Zuccotti park himself to see the situation. You also have people misrepresenting their own polls. The fact that these protests have been primarily peaceful is why the police force in Albany recently refused a direct order to break up the protest there.

A few idiots aside, the primary reason some of the protests have gotten ugly is because city governments are extending permission, letting people get all the paperwork in order, then abruptly refusing to let them protest later. Even here in Idaho we are having the same problem. A major event was scheduled for Pocatello this week, and at the last moment protesters were refused the ability (they'd already been granted) to camp in the park. In Oakland, the police came and just told everyone to go home, even though they had all their papers in order. So a few hours later they came back. At that point, the police started using gas and rubber bullets, and consistently picked out and fired on those who tried to go to the aid of people who went down. Parks are public, not private property. An example of refusing to move from private property like LGR claims this is would be the sit-in's at diners and department stores in the Civil Rights movement.


Does that make sense, Corbin?

If you want an excellent, but more emotionally-based example, go here: http://wearethe99percent.tumblr.com/

[thalassa]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

Not one of them is calling for the expulsion of anybody from the country. And the Zionist mug isn't even real, heck it's not even a good photoshop.

Actually, its an image from a Tea Party blogger's blog...I consider it internet signage.

[LadyGarnetRose]

Re: Police fire on Occupy Oakland protesters.

Well...I'm not sure I'd be hedging my bets on the Tea Party comparison then.

Not one of them is calling for the expulsion of anybody from the country. And the Zionist mug isn't even real, heck it's not even a good photoshop.

Just out of curiosity, what were the protesters attempting to accomplish ( i.e. What was their intended outcome)?

Not quite sure, maybe ask Acorn?