Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

[Tylluan Penry]

Personally I'm not a great one for any type of authority. Even when I was a child, if I saw a sign that said 'Keep off the grass' I just had to go and walk on it. My father always carried a piece of chalk in his pocket just so he could deface any public signs he didn't like....

However, I recognise that some people derive some comfort and reassurance from the idea that there is someone in authority to watch over and guide them (at least, I assume that's the reason. If you can think of others, this is the place to share.)

So what I wanted to discuss was this - do you recognise spiritual authority? Do you think it's even necessary? Does the Pagan community need it? Do you need it?

And most of what gives a person authority in your view? I mean, I've written books, but even if I know a fair bit about certain subjects, I wouldn't regard myself as an authority. Everything I write is my personal view - it's not written in stone. If it's helpful then fine, but if not disregard it.

So what do you think about authority?

[MaskedOne]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

I recognize Divine authority in specific areas. I'm not so quick to recognize spiritual authority in human beings. Depending on my mood, I do respect oathbound clerics but I don't translate that into treating them as figures of authority (spiritual or otherwise) in my life.

To bring this into more concrete terms, I have a degree of respect of the Catholic priesthood. The people involved go through six years of schooling and swear binding vows that will influence the rest of their life to serve their God. I'm happy to be polite to those holding such office in most cases (those who abuse the power of their office can quickly loose that benefit) and I'm willing to accept that those who live up to the covenant they make when being initiated into the priesthood can probably under the right conditions draw strength from that covenant at the very least equal to anything I can do. With that said, I'm not Catholic. I respect their devotion and acknowledge that some of the priesthood can potentially wield great strength, I will not offer them authority over my spirituality. I walk another path and their authority is not applicable. Their office merits courtesy but not deference.

Same rules apply to how I deal with most other priesthoods. I will sometimes grant respect based on an office (unless I come the conclusion that is held by one unworthy) but deference is a completely different subject.

[ChainLightning]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

Spiritual authority... to me, it sounds like an oxymoron.

As I've said, on numerous occasions, spirituality is a PERSONAL thing. Others cannot dictate what you feel or how you relate to your god(s). Particularly, if those others are not deities.

That doesn't mean that certain people don't surpass the *average* when it comes to general experience and/or knowledge. But does that mean that they know my relationship with my gods better than I do? Uh. No.

[Maulus]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

Personally speaking, i don't agree with organised religion in any form. To my mind, a priest of any path should be a guide, a signpost at a crossroads if you will. No one should tell you what you should believe as each persons path is diffrent.
However, I have a lot of respect to some religious authority holders, as an example, when my wifes' nan died at the beginning of the year, we couldn't get up to scotland to the funeral because of the snow blocking all the border roads, airports and stopped trains running. We couldn't get hold of a Pagan priestess (there was one in Derby until recently) so we spoke to the anglican minister at the Deaf club. He saw us and really helped my wife, without being overtly Condemning of our paths. That earned my respect, but he still wouldn't have authority over me.

M

[Dufonce]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

I believe in mentors. not authority figures. Even those with titles, its just a title declaring how much knowledge they have about their belief system essentially.. you go to them for guidance.

[TaiganPagan]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

Nature is my authority.
Everything on earth is shapen and guided by nature, so how can we not have it?
I am part of it, we are interconnected to it.
What ever we do, we must always take in account of the consequences on Nature, or what Nature will return to us.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

[quote author=MaskedOne link=topic=252.msg2268#msg2268 date=1287006203]

Same rules apply to how I deal with most other priesthoods. I will sometimes grant respect based on an office (unless I come the conclusion that is held by one unworthy) but deference is a completely different subject.
[/quote]

Yes, I think that's the core of the matter - respect is one thing, but deference is quite another. That's a really important point.

[quote author=TaiganPagan link=topic=252.msg2429#msg2429 date=1287032404]
What ever we do, we must always take in account of the consequences on Nature, or what Nature will return to us.
[/quote]
I think Crowley wrote something very similar about nature.... quoting off the top of my head it was something along the lines that nature cannot be mocked. Wish I could remember it properly.
[quote author=Dufonce link=topic=252.msg2370#msg2370 date=1287020223]
I believe in mentors. not authority figures. Even those with titles, its just a title declaring how much knowledge they have about their belief system essentially.. you go to them for guidance.
[/quote]

Yes, that's an important point, too, there is a real difference between mentoring and being helping, and claiming authority which is essentially to claim a privilege for oneself.
[quote author=Maulus link=topic=252.msg2299#msg2299 date=1287008498]
Personally speaking, i don't agree with organised religion in any form. To my mind, a priest of any path should be a guide, a signpost at a crossroads if you will. No one should tell you what you should believe as each persons path is diffrent. [/quote]

I like the imagery of the signpost at the crossroads. It's a powerful one - and of course eveven when we're confronted with a signpost, we're free to ignore it and strike out on our own if we choose.

[quote author=ChainLightning link=topic=252.msg2282#msg2282 date=1287007599]
Spiritual authority... to me, it sounds like an oxymoron.

As I've said, on numerous occasions, spirituality is a PERSONAL thing. Others cannot dictate what you feel or how you relate to your god(s). Particularly, if those others are not deities.

That doesn't mean that certain people don't surpass the *average* when it comes to general experience and/or knowledge. But does that mean that they know my relationship with my gods better than I do? Uh. No.
[/quote]

Absolutely, Chain. Our spiritual path has to be a personal thing. I have never had any desire to look into men's soul's and find out what they believe. It isn't my business. If they want to tell me or to discuss it, that's fine. I certainly don't have the right to tell another person that everything they believe is wrong. In the PF we can often say that we believe a person's belief might be based on fault information - but that doesn't necessarily invalidate their spiritual path as a whole.

Sometimes the gods have a way of leading us through all the dross, misinformation and junk and we STILL manage to find our way.

IME, The Universe just works that way sometimes.

[B. de Corbin]

[/quote]

No. I look for spirit inside. Who but me can look inside me but me?

author=Tylluan Penry link=topic=252.msg2259#msg2259 date=1287004755]
Do you think it's even necessary?

No. I think it is destructive to the individual - except for those who are mentally incapable of assuming authority over themselves. They need someone to give them direction.

[quote author=Tylluan Penry link=topic=252.msg2259#msg2259 date=1287004755]
Does the Pagan community need it? Do you need it[/quote][/quote]

People give it to them. Sometimes people can be forced into accepting authority through bullying, or through physical coercion, but, ultimately, an individual has to choose to give up personal authority in exchange for something promised by external authority.

There are a lot of people who deserve respect due to their knowledge and experience, but authority is a different matter entirely.

[quote author=Tylluan Penry link=topic=252.msg2259#msg2259 date=1287004755]
So what do you think about authority?
[/quote]

[thalassa]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

I think it depends on what you mean by "spiritual authority"... If you mean persons of greater spiritual community stature that has the authority to make rules and regulations regarding that community, I don't need one because I don't practice that kind of religion, but I don't begrudge those in a spiritual community that do. If you mean someone that has the authority to make decisions about my state of grace (or lack thereof), once again, I don't practice that kind of religion and (as long as they aren't doing something dodgy, like saying pedophilia is the way to heaven) I'm not too picky there either.

I, myself, do not recognize anyone as a spiritual authority. I might recognize them as a expert in an area of study, a long time leader of a certain tradition, etc...but they do not speak for me and the state of my soul, or the means by which I experience divinity. But I also understand that some people need that kind of reassurance and guidance.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

I dunno. I never really give anyone 100% authority. For me, respect is earned, not automatic. Having some position of authority doesn't really grant my immediate respect.

If someone is well respected, I'll read their book, but I'll weigh it against other things I've read along with my own feelings on the subject. Even if I do respect someone and accept their authority, it doesn't mean I'll always agree with them though.

[Eryx_UK]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

There is no higher authority except the gods, and then they don't force me to be a specific way. Everything is guidelines, some of which I agree with and follow, and some I don't.

[Tylluan Penry]

[/quote]

I so agree with this - it seems to me that authority is a human construct, and that therefore putting in 'spiritual authority' is, as Chain commented earlier, an oxymoron. Plus in the wrong hands it becomes just a conveninet stick to beat the dog with. Which is something we should really be trying to avoid like the plague!

Mods _ I am really sorry for double posting here, but when I try to comment the page just starts dancing after acouple of lines and I can't see what I'm doing. If there is a way to do a double post, please could you let me know. Hang on, I'll be back in a minute...

[Ophidia]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

Well, when I was a Wiccan, and when I was attending formal classes, I considered the High Priests and Priestesses to be the authority figures in religious matters. No matter my own personal beliefs, I deferred to them. When they started trying to spread their spiritual authority into more secular matters, such as friendships and sexual relationships - that's when I stopped being a Wiccan.

Now that I am a solitary, eclectic Pagan... I'm really the only authority I have, which is why I spend my time here. I don't want my spirituality to stop growing, and I don't want to stop learning - but honestly, y'all aren't the boss of me

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Spiritual Authority : do you recognise it? And other questions...

Thal - I think you're right to point out the problems with the definition of spiritual authority and also to differentiate the difference between an expert in a particular area of study, long term leader etc., and a 'spiritual leader.' For me one of the biggest problems is that spiritual leaders (who tend to be the ones most likely to claim spiritual authority - and I'm well aware that I am making assumptions here that may not hold much water) tend to demand that others recognise them. Why can't they be spiritual leaders in a vacuum, I ask myself? (But I have to add that I am getting a bit ratty in my old age....)

Danie-Marie - you raise another interetsing point. That even if you agree that someone has authority sometimes, it doesn't automatically mean they have it all the time. And that of course is where the whole argument can run into a brick wall: 'I have authority therefore you must always listen to me.' Weasel words that can cause endless problems....

And Eryx - I think you put forward another take on the subject... that even if you are prepared to accept divine authority, it's still optional, a guideline and not a command.

You see, I think all these replies show that the whole idea of 'spiritual' authority is - and has to be - very fluid. I for one start grinding my teeth (well, what's left of them) when people start trying to tell me what I have to believe. I think it's something I've noticed creeping into Paganism a bit in the past ten years or so and I have to say it bothers me. If you choose to belong to a certain path, as Perzephone did, one that has rules and regulations I have no problem with that. If it makes you happy, I have no problem with that - as Thal has pointed out, some people need a different type of structure.

Where I get a problem is when people start saying (a) That their particular brand of paganism is better than everyone else's, (b) when they start trying to spread their spiritual authority into things that had nothing to do with them (again as Perz mentioned) and (c) when they start telling me what I ought to think and do.

[MaskedOne]

[/quote]

I'm going to add a corollary that rarely applies quite as directly to spiritual matters but can apply in normal life. The authority ends when the goal is accomplished and any valid obligations on your part are either annulled or fulfilled. Otherwise, ehmm, to use an extreme example

Bob signs up for the military to acquire pay for a couple months and training in some odd skill that he can't easily learn elsewhere. 2 Years into his contract, he decides that he's got everything he needs and the Chain of Command no longer applies to his life. The military is going to disagree vehemently and Bob's life is gonna suck really soon. Gods may occasionally forgive but getting into a habit of breaking contracts once you've got whatever you wanted out of an arrangement is a good way to make humans send your life straight to hell.