Animal Testing

[Denarius]

Re: Animal Testing

So all in all they are being used for bad things.

The problem here is not with science, it's with humanity. I still say that it's an achievement that we've gone so long without wiping ourselves out. Because, we may be evil but we're not stupid.

And again, we've been threatening people and doing evil things for as long as we've been around. Technology just makes us more efficient. I mean the internet has been used to do all the things you've mentioned a hell of a lot more than these weapons, just as the television before it, the radio before that, and the printed word before that. Each more efficient than the last.

We could have wiped ourselves out using the pointed stick... Would you consider humanity qualified to handle the responsibility of sharp wood? I mean we could do so much evil with it. Take Vlad the Impaler for example.

Also, I don't know what you are on about with this birthday stuff. Mine was like a month ago.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Animal Testing

Really? I was told that holistic medicine used only whole ingredients, as in no extracts or synthesized stuff. Something about things needing to be complete systems or something. Maybe I'm just stupid and was only half paying attention, so I made a wrong assumption about it.

The way you are describing it sounds like the Hippocratic school of medicine, which I was just reading about the other day.

Yep. I do see a lot of what the freedictionary page about, but it seems to be more common that it describes comprehensive treatments. I'd avoid the freedictionary for accurate definitions, by the way...for example, it has a list of "holistic" therapies, but none of those are actually holistic. They only become holistic when one or more of them are combined. For example, herbal medicine alone doesn't tackle the mind, body, and spirit either, but it can when it's used in combination with meditation and massage.

Here is a bit more information

http://www.holisticmedicine.org/cont...3&contentid=43 (this was linked through from the American Holistic Medical Association)

http://www.cancer.org/treatment/treatmentsandsideeffects/complementaryandalternativemedicine/mindbodyandspirit/holistic-medicine

http://www.mnn.com/health/fitness-well-being/stories/whats-the-difference-between-holistic-and-homeopathic-medicine

Holistic medicine -can- be all-natural, but it is false to use it to describe purely natural treatments, because it can (and often does) use conventional medicine. The term is vague, so if you want to talk about natural medicine, it's best to say "natural medicine."

Re: Animal Testing

I see it the other way. We've had nuclear capabilities for nearly seventy years, and it's only been used as a weapon twice. We understand how dangerous they are.

Plus, we are capable of some really nasty things that we just don't do. Right now we have the capability for orbital, chemical, and biological weapons that are as scary as nukes.

All of these are heavily regulated, because we understand very well the responsibilities these things entail.

Again, the simplest response I can give to you is "why stop now?" We've already made things that can destroy ourselves, anything else is just a matter of efficiency.

I cant completely agree with this, hence all these weapons you named are being used. Just in a different way. They are being used to scare people, control people, suppress them and black mail them...So all in all they are being used for bad things.

[Denarius]

Re: Animal Testing

Yeah, there really is a problem with people (Even doctors!) forgetting that being healthy is so much more than just not being sick.

[MoonRaven]

Re: Animal Testing

Two sites on holistic medicine. The first appears to acknowledge only the alternative medical aspect while the second look at how the the holistic approach can be incorporated in modern medical practice.

http://medical-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/holistic+medicine

http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/holistic-medicine

But actually the confusion between holistic and alternative is a common one as the first site shows, so no Denarius you're not stupid.
And yes, taking a holistic approach to medicine and health is a return to the original mindset of medicine, but that doesn't mean that we should chuck out modern medicine either but that modern "traditional" medicine and "alternative" medicine should get together and figure out how best to keep us healthy to start with and how to cure us when we do get sick.

[Denarius]

Re: Animal Testing

"Holistic" treatment doesn't mean what you think it does.

Really? I was told that holistic medicine used only whole ingredients, as in no extracts or synthesized stuff. Something about things needing to be complete systems or something. Maybe I'm just stupid and was only half paying attention, so I made a wrong assumption about it.

The way you are describing it sounds like the Hippocratic school of medicine, which I was just reading about the other day.

[DanieMarie]

Re: Animal Testing

Gahhhh ok guys, this word was used earlier and I didn't say anything because I didn't want to be nitpicky, but now you're all doing it!

"Holistic" treatment doesn't mean what you think it does.

Holistic treatment is an integrative and comprehensive treatment that incorporates a variety of different methods. In many cases, it combines modern, western medicine with alternative therapies. For example, if you take prescribed medication, do yoga, and take herbal supplements, that's holistic. The idea is the whole person is considered in the treatment, not just the individual problem. Different factors like diet, exercise, herbal therapies, supplements, homeopathy, massage therapy, and yes, traditional medicine, can be part of the treatment.

It doesn't mean herbal medicine, homeopathy, or other natural or alternative treatments on their own.

[Medusa]

Re: Animal Testing

Holistic medicine can't cure a damaged heart or pancreas etc.

[thalassa]

Re: Animal Testing

Perze, there's a pretty good lay science book on toxicology called "The Dose makes the Poison" that you might be interested in.

[Ophidia]

Re: Animal Testing

I still stand by what I said earlier, I think any testing that gives animals pain is wrong. I'm not saying that we should scrap what we have learned, but think about it. Most of the products from animal testing are the things making us sick in the first place. If most of the world didn't turn so industrial/commercial and the average person wasn't weaned to like fast food, sodas, beauty products, cigarettes, etc, and if we all stuck with holistic medicine, then we would've evolved so much more as a society. (just look at the Sentinelese, they don't have any modern conveniences but they are thriving and living much better and healthier than their neighbors who have received western help)

Just because something is 'holistic', 'natural' or 'organic' doesn't mean that it's safe, effective or environmentally friendly.

Humans have been purposefully and voluntarily using things that are known to be dangerous for a very long time - even before animal testing became a 'thing'. That's how we found out so many things were deadly - like lead, arsenic, radium, etc. And we get mad when we're told that something is too dangerous to use anymore. Hell, there are people so desperate for 'beauty' that they'll use things that probably weren't tested on animals because the product was never meant to be used on a human (like construction-grade silicone caulking) to enhance their boobs & butts.

[jcaternolo]

Re: Animal Testing

Hollistic medicine has it's place, but surely you understand why actual medicine is better. If there is a root, leaf, or berry that has a medicinal property then it can be isolated and replicated. That makes it safer, cheaper, and more reliable and attainable to the common man.

Yeah, medicine as a business has more than it's fair share of problems... but medicine as a science is not the problem.

Yes, you have a point. I just feel guilty whenever I use something that was tested on animals, I can imagine soap being dripped into animals eyes or aids being injected into a monkey. I just feel sick that stuff like this is a necessary evil. There has to be some other way, I don't think we were meant to live like this.

[Denarius]

Re: Animal Testing

Hollistic medicine has it's place, but surely you understand why actual medicine is better. If there is a root, leaf, or berry that has a medicinal property then it can be isolated and replicated. That makes it safer, cheaper, and more reliable and attainable to the common man.

Yeah, medicine as a business has more than it's fair share of problems... but medicine as a science is not the problem.

[jcaternolo]

Re: Animal Testing

I still stand by what I said earlier, I think any testing that gives animals pain is wrong. I'm not saying that we should scrap what we have learned, but think about it. Most of the products from animal testing are the things making us sick in the first place. If most of the world didn't turn so industrial/commercial and the average person wasn't weaned to like fast food, sodas, beauty products, cigarettes, etc, and if we all stuck with holistic medicine, then we would've evolved so much more as a society. (just look at the Sentinelese, they don't have any modern conveniences but they are thriving and living much better and healthier than their neighbors who have received western help)

Edit: My mom has diabetes and I am thankful that there is medicine to keep her alive. However, if the medical profession wasn't so occupied with playing mad scientist and more focused on finding holistic cures, then there likely would've been more cures. But since hospitals are really businesses in disguise, and they want to make money, it's up to individuals for the most part to advance true medicine.

Edit 2: If we really must have testing, test on hardened criminals. Some may complain about their human rights being violated, but they deserve far less rights than an innocent animal. (and I'm not talking about jay walkers, but rapists and murderers)

[Denarius]

Re: Animal Testing

Just look at all the things that were discovered in science to create the atomic bomb and everything that came after it.

I see it the other way. We've had nuclear capabilities for nearly seventy years, and it's only been used as a weapon twice. We understand how dangerous they are.

Plus, we are capable of some really nasty things that we just don't do. Right now we have the capability for orbital, chemical, and biological weapons that are as scary as nukes.

All of these are heavily regulated, because we understand very well the responsibilities these things entail.

Again, the simplest response I can give to you is "why stop now?" We've already made things that can destroy ourselves, anything else is just a matter of efficiency.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Animal Testing

It bothers me at a gut level, but I'm 55, and not much more of the future belongs to me. It's a choice for the people of the future - just one of a lot of possible choices - who choose they world they will live in, just as we did.