Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

[Alienist]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

I happen to believe in a literal interpretation of the scriptures unless it is obviously in a metaphorical context.

So to me the events in the garden happened just as described. The serpent was indeed Satan in the physical form of a serpent.

How do I then address this OP?

Well things were different back then. The serpent apparently had legs back then as part of the punishment was to crawl along in the dust. Adam and Eve also had a different physical form.
It is clear from the later scriptures that mankind in our present form can not stand in the presence of God and physically survive, and yet Adam and Eve apparently hung out with god all the time.

Another thing to consider is the foundation for this OP. Why was the serpent punished for telling the truth. Well did the serpent actually tell the truth. Legalistically yes, but in reality, no. If you're confused with that concept then spend a day in court :-)


There are three promises the serpent made:
1. You will have knowledge.
2. You will be like a god.
3. You will not die.

1. Remember that Adam and Eve had full access to God and could ask Him anything. They already had access to any and all knowledge they ever desired. the serpent was promising something they already had, but represented it in a way as to mislead. In fact, the result is that Adam and Eve were cut off from all knowledge.

2. Adam and Eve were immortal beings, free from sickness and disease, and in constant connection with the creator of the universe. The serpent used the word "like" to imply that Adam and Eve would in some form or function reflect god-ness. Since Adam and Eve were created in the likeness of God, then even after the fall, they were "like" a god. But were not gods. Again, Adam and Eve gave up a state of existence very similar to God assuming that they would become God and this is not what the serpent actually said.

3. Before the tree of knowledge, death did not exist. then after they did indeed die. In fact, God said to Adam and Eve that they would die the very same day of partaking of the fruit. It too me a while to reconcile this one as it really does appear that God may have lied (which according to my faith is not possible) until I remembered that the scriptures state that to God, 1000 years is a day and a day 1000 years. Adam lived for 930 years after expulsion, which falls within the 1000 year time window for a day.

Now, I believe that the serpent really did lie and was subsequently punished. There was no real truth in any of the promises he made, but distortions and misleading arguments. Yes, there was technical truth there, but the scriptures are clear that God doesn't buy technicalities like that and truth must be both sincere and accurate.

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I would like to elaborate on this discussion of choice.
Adam and Eve has choice right from the get go. The trees were in the garden so they had the free will to choose.

I don't think the serpent brought choice or free will at all. It brought temptation, defiance, greed, and deception.

It also brought the seed wars as described in the first prophesy of the book of Genesis.

Actually the serpent was correct on saying they'd be like God. Because God himself admitted that the humans were like him and then placed something to guard the tree of life.

[shebani]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

Are you referring to the Sumerian civilisation founded by Nimrod? If so, then that kingly line existed after the flood. The garden of Eden was a long time before.

Agree. I believe we are given an unworkable timeline in the hebrew scriptures, but by comparing Noah is listed, and on to Laban father of Abraham.

Noah = Akkadian Atrahasis ("extremely wise") and Utnapishtim ("he found life"), & Ziusudra

In the WB-62 Sumerian king list recension, Ziusudra, or Zin-Suddu of Shuruppak is recorded as having reigned as both king and gudug priest for 10 sars, or periods of 3,600.^[5] In this version, Ziusudra inherited rulership from his father Šuruppak (written SU.KUR.LAM)

SU.KUR.LAM = LAMECH (IMO)

Sorry OP if considered a derail.

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Sorry I meant Terah, father of Abraham.

[thalassa]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

I think...at least I hope, that Bible story of Genesis is a metaphor, and at least is probably best read as one. Joseph Campbell talks a lot about this...but it was always my impression that it was a parable for the beginning on consciousness in human beings.

My cat does not think like I do. She doesn't ponder her place in the universe or worry about god. She just is.

At one point in human evolution, we went from a creature that just was to a creature that looked up at the sky and wondered, who am I? and why am I here? To me, that's always been the "tree of knowledge." But to know, to be aware, there is then a moral responsibility that occurs. You don't say a lion sins for eating his rival's cubs, but a man kills his neighbor's child and its a murder.

This...and most cultures have a story akin to this--a creation of people as something a wee bit different from other animals.

[DON]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

You are welcome, I am glad you found it helpful. My opinion is that the kingly line that the hebrew scriptures focus on, is the Sumerian kingship. I believe Adapa / 'Adam' was the son of EA. I came to this conclusion by years of reading and looking at artifacts. At one time I had the same opinion as you, that YAH was EN.LIL. At this point I believe YAH is EA, or a description of fusing the two. I believe this is also why we see the focus on stories of 'brothers at odds' or 'brothers inheriting', as in conflict over which brother carries on the line.
I do believe we had an original Torah but it has been modified to suit, but believe we can still find other more possibly accurate information.

Are you referring to the Sumerian civilisation founded by Nimrod? If so, then that kingly line existed after the flood. The garden of Eden was a long time before.

[Rowanwood]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

I think...at least I hope, that Bible story of Genesis is a metaphor, and at least is probably best read as one. Joseph Campbell talks a lot about this...but it was always my impression that it was a parable for the beginning on consciousness in human beings.

My cat does not think like I do. She doesn't ponder her place in the universe or worry about god. She just is.

At one point in human evolution, we went from a creature that just was to a creature that looked up at the sky and wondered, who am I? and why am I here? To me, that's always been the "tree of knowledge." But to know, to be aware, there is then a moral responsibility that occurs. You don't say a lion sins for eating his rival's cubs, but a man kills his neighbor's child and its a murder.

[shebani]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

That's actually a very interesting link. Thanks for sharing! A lot of Hebrew writing was based on older Sumerian writings and so forth. I hear that Yahweh is really Enlil, too.

You are welcome, I am glad you found it helpful. My opinion is that the kingly line that the hebrew scriptures focus on, is the Sumerian kingship. I believe Adapa / 'Adam' was the son of EA. I came to this conclusion by years of reading and looking at artifacts. At one time I had the same opinion as you, that YAH was EN.LIL. At this point I believe YAH is EA, or a description of fusing the two. I believe this is also why we see the focus on stories of 'brothers at odds' or 'brothers inheriting', as in conflict over which brother carries on the line.
I do believe we had an original Torah but it has been modified to suit, but believe we can still find other more possibly accurate information.

[Alienist]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

That's actually a very interesting link. Thanks for sharing! A lot of Hebrew writing was based on older Sumerian writings and so forth. I hear that Yahweh is really Enlil, too.

[shebani]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

Like Orecha here, I have come to realize the Torah we read now as a redirection / recast of earlier knowledge. I do believe the earlier understanding can still be found, but looks a bit different than what we are given as scripture. I think this page is fairly informative

http://www.bibleorigins.net/EdensTreeofKnowledgeLife.html

[DON]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

I happen to believe in a literal interpretation of the scriptures unless it is obviously in a metaphorical context.

So to me the events in the garden happened just as described. The serpent was indeed Satan in the physical form of a serpent.

How do I then address this OP?

Well things were different back then. The serpent apparently had legs back then as part of the punishment was to crawl along in the dust. Adam and Eve also had a different physical form.
It is clear from the later scriptures that mankind in our present form can not stand in the presence of God and physically survive, and yet Adam and Eve apparently hung out with god all the time.

Another thing to consider is the foundation for this OP. Why was the serpent punished for telling the truth. Well did the serpent actually tell the truth. Legalistically yes, but in reality, no. If you're confused with that concept then spend a day in court :-)


There are three promises the serpent made:
1. You will have knowledge.
2. You will be like a god.
3. You will not die.

1. Remember that Adam and Eve had full access to God and could ask Him anything. They already had access to any and all knowledge they ever desired. the serpent was promising something they already had, but represented it in a way as to mislead. In fact, the result is that Adam and Eve were cut off from all knowledge.

2. Adam and Eve were immortal beings, free from sickness and disease, and in constant connection with the creator of the universe. The serpent used the word "like" to imply that Adam and Eve would in some form or function reflect god-ness. Since Adam and Eve were created in the likeness of God, then even after the fall, they were "like" a god. But were not gods. Again, Adam and Eve gave up a state of existence very similar to God assuming that they would become God and this is not what the serpent actually said.

3. Before the tree of knowledge, death did not exist. then after they did indeed die. In fact, God said to Adam and Eve that they would die the very same day of partaking of the fruit. It too me a while to reconcile this one as it really does appear that God may have lied (which according to my faith is not possible) until I remembered that the scriptures state that to God, 1000 years is a day and a day 1000 years. Adam lived for 930 years after expulsion, which falls within the 1000 year time window for a day.

Now, I believe that the serpent really did lie and was subsequently punished. There was no real truth in any of the promises he made, but distortions and misleading arguments. Yes, there was technical truth there, but the scriptures are clear that God doesn't buy technicalities like that and truth must be both sincere and accurate.

- - - Updated - - -

I would like to elaborate on this discussion of choice.
Adam and Eve has choice right from the get go. The trees were in the garden so they had the free will to choose.

I don't think the serpent brought choice or free will at all. It brought temptation, defiance, greed, and deception.

It also brought the seed wars as described in the first prophesy of the book of Genesis.

[thalassa]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

Because no one actually *wants* to know the "truth".

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

In the Pages book I mentioned earlier, the author actually runs through a series of different interpretations that have been used for the snake story. One is the deposed deity interpretation. I like that one, but I'm not a historian so I can't claim any kind of knowledge or particular wisdom, so in my imagination -

The snake is the teacher of wisdom, for which it uses it's forked tongue.

The wisdom it teaches is the knowledge of choice - that there are always at least two choices one can make, two forks.

It doesn't matter which one you pick, the snake doesn't even care; it just wants to teach that there are always choices, some are equally interesting, and you can pick any one of them..

But whichever one one picks, it affect everything that comes after.

Love your final line - because this is so true of life generally, isn't it? That even when we are free to choose we are never free of the consequences of that choice.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

Personally, I would like to start this thread over and discuss first who or what the serpent actually is/was. Because to simply take it all at face value i.e. serpent = devil/satan is really restricting it all much too far. There are other explanations, such as the serpent representing a deposed former deity - there were plenty of them around surely, since the old testament isn't actually all that old, not by human standards anyway

In the Pages book I mentioned earlier, the author actually runs through a series of different interpretations that have been used for the snake story. One is the deposed deity interpretation. I like that one, but I'm not a historian so I can't claim any kind of knowledge or particular wisdom, so in my imagination -

The snake is the teacher of wisdom, for which it uses it's forked tongue.

The wisdom it teaches is the knowledge of choice - that there are always at least two choices one can make, two forks.

It doesn't matter which one you pick, the snake doesn't even care; it just wants to teach that there are always choices, some are equally interesting, and you can pick any one of them..

But whichever one one picks, it affect everything that comes after.

[Malflick]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

Just because I've seen this line of thought often enough to get bored of it:

The knowledge provided by the Tree manifested in shame at being nude before the LoH. The LoH had not to date expressed so much as a hint that nudity was displeasing but eating from the Tree told Adam and Eve that it was wrong. If we're going to re-interpret Genesis then it's just as easy to say they were told not to eat from the tree because it offered deception and the appearance of knowledge instead of actual Truth. Under those conditions, condemning the being that led them down such a false path is arguably (depends on who and what the Serpent was) appropriate.

Heck let's go further than that, the majority of people that I've seen on this board tend to look at Evil as a societal construct instead of an objective reality. If Good and Evil are not objective realities then eating the fruit imposed a specific (and at the time, unnecessary) societal construct on Adam and Eve without providing a mature understanding of that construct and this is a good thing?

Adam and Eve were already capable of reason, the Serpent used reason to convince them to eat of the Tree.
Adam and Ever already had Free Will or they would not have been capable of defying a divine command to begin with.
The Tree gave a morality that was not necessary for their environment and involved a sense of shame about their bodies that is destructive now according to recent posts by people on this board.

Where's the profit here again?

Without mentioning the actual reaction of the LoH, this matter is at best a gray area regarding the Serpent's advice. At worst, he talked Eve into eating figurative poison.

I think this about says most of what I would add to this. Except that also its pretty likely the snake in the garden was literally just a snake, and there are other animals that talk in the bible.

Anyways, I don't think I want to touch the fist-bumping about YHWH being a meany face with a 1000000000000 foot pole.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

Personally, I would like to start this thread over and discuss first who or what the serpent actually is/was. Because to simply take it all at face value i.e. serpent = devil/satan is really restricting it all much too far. There are other explanations, such as the serpent representing a deposed former deity - there were plenty of them around surely, since the old testament isn't actually all that old, not by human standards anyway

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

Maybe the entire value of ambiguous religious texts is that they allow the reader to see in them whatever that reader is predisposed to see, kid of like an ink blot.