Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

I used to think the whole story was just a metaphor for reaching puberty, and a lesson of how "once a flower blooms it begins to die", and the knowledge of the cycle of life, etc.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

Maybe because that particular god was a mean old bugger...???

That's basically my feeling, but I don't want to put ideas in anybody's head, especially when they can arrive at the same conclusion by applying simple logic...

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

I wonder why the Bible says (pretty clearly) that they were punished for doing it, if that's what god wanted them to do anyway...

Maybe because that particular god was a mean old bugger...???

[Sondst]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

and thats one of the many things that confused me. I never understand exactly how this all was supposed to make sense. Every other chrisitan says they were punished but the mormon faith teaches that it was kinda set up like a punishment but in reality he wanted them to do wrong. Its confusing.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

From my understanding and what I was taught through mormon belief god wanted them to exercise their freedom of choice and to eat the fruit. Without eating the fruit they would not have the ability to make good and bad decisions, or repopulate. He kicked them out of the garden so they could repopulate, if they hadn't been kicked out the earth would never have been populated and gods work would never been done. Its confusing to me but thats how my dad always explained it and sunday school.

I wonder why the Bible says (pretty clearly) that they were punished for doing it, if that's what god wanted them to do anyway...

[Sondst]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

From my understanding and what I was taught through mormon belief god wanted them to exercise their freedom of choice and to eat the fruit. Without eating the fruit they would not have the ability to make good and bad decisions, or repopulate. He kicked them out of the garden so they could repopulate, if they hadn't been kicked out the earth would never have been populated and gods work would never been done. Its confusing to me but thats how my dad always explained it and sunday school.

The serpant in the bible represents satan, it in essance is the way satan prefered to appear to people, humorisly in the book of mormon the serpant is godly and represents god the complete opposite.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

I'd just like to clarify a few things here, because the Bible is actually fairly explicit on most of the points being debated here...

1) There are TWO 'special' trees in the Garden of Eden. The Tree of Life, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad:

Genesis 2:9 "And from the ground the Lord God caused to grow every three that was pleasing to the sight and good for food, with the Tree of Life in the middle of the garden, and the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad."

2) God said that you will die immediately upon eating the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge:

Genesis 2:16-17 "And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, "Of every tree of the garden you are free to eat; but as for the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad, you must not eat of it; for as soon as you eat of it, you shall die.""

3) God did not throw them out of the Garden of Eden because they disobeyed him. Adam's punishment was to have to till the earth for himself and work for his meals "until you return to the ground". Eve was cursed to suffer pain in childbirth and the serpent was cursed to have to crawl on it's belly and eat dirt. The latter two were also cursed that their children should forevermore hate and fear each other. I can quote that passage but it's fairly long.

4) They were only thrown out of Eden because God was afraid:

Genesis 3:22-23 "And the Lord God said, "Now that man has become like one of us, knowing good and bad, what if he should stretch out his hand and take also from the Tree of Life and eat, and live forever!" So the Lord God banished him from the garden of Eden, to till the soil from which he was taken.

5) God then places a guard on "the way to Tree of Life", not the Tree of Knowledge.

6) The only mention about the nature of the serpent is that it is the most shrewd of creatures. Any speculation as to the identity of the serpent is just that... speculation. Presumably it was not in the form of a serpent at that point, because it is not until it is cursed that it is forced to crawl on it's belly and bite at the ankles of human children. I was always a bit confused about the eating dirt part though... snakes obviously don't eat dirt. lol.

It's pretty clear from the actual words of the Bible (technically, these are quoted from my Tanakh, but my King James and Good News Bibles agree almost to the letter) that Adam and Eve are NOT already immortal, but that eating from the Tree of Life would make them immortal, a possibility which YHVH fears. God's punishment speech to Adam suggests that Adam would have eventually 'returned to the dust' regardless of his eating of the Tree of Knowledge.

Unfortunately there is no qualifier of 'good' or 'bad' and that is possibly an oversimplification due to translation. However. I don't have an original Hebrew Bible so I can't say what the original language of the Bible says. I do know that my Tanakh was translated from a Hebrew text rather than a Greek translation (which is what many English translations were made from). There is much talk in the passages of 'having their eyes opened', 'knowing good from bad', 'becoming like one of the divine beings' and 'becoming like one of us'. Otherwise the only mention is that before they ate, they were naked but felt no shame, and after they ate, they realised they were naked and wanted to cover up.

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Having said all that, I realise that I should probably say what my actual opinion on the matter is.

I'm a animist and a hard polytheist, and to me, YHVH is a deity like any other, who exists in his own little corner of the Otherworlds and who has the ability to exert some influence here in this world. I tend to look at the Bible the exact same way I look at the Poetic Edda or any other primary mythological source. So my personal opinion is as follows...

YHVH created his little corner of the Otherworlds from scratch... 'his world' so to speak. In there was the Garden of Eden, and he made a few people to kick start his own personal race of devotees, and he stuck them in the Garden. He made their life cushy and idyllic and handed them everything on a silver platter. He told them not to eat of the Tree of Knowledge, presumably because he didn't want them to be like the other gods and know good from bad. They disobeyed him and he was upset about that, so he punished them and made them work for their supper. Then he got scared that they would also go and eat from the Tree of Life, which would make them immortal AND know good from bad. Obviously this wasn't part of his plan for his personal race of devotees and so he kicked them out of the Garden as a preventative measure. Thus they went from existing in YHVH's Otherworld to having to eke out a living here in Thisworld.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

There's a lot of logic chopping going on here, and that's OK. To make sense of religion generally that straight lines be twisted.

However, if someone would like to try straight line thinking, I, personally, prefer the Gnostic interpretation reported by Elaine Pagels (Gnostic scholar. She worked on the translations from the Nag Hammadi library) in Adam, Eve, and the Serpent.

In it, the creator god (Yahweh) has imprisoned 'spirit in flesh' by hiding it's true God-nature. The serpent comes to free it, by leading it to knowledge. In this interpretation, the serpent is the forerunner of Jesus - not the devil.

[Alienist]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

I know he didn't guard the tree of knowledge of good and evil but he did guard the tree of life. He had said that humans became like god, just as the serpent said to them which was true. He was worried enough to guard the tree of life to prevent them from eating it. Strange as he was willing to guard the tree of life after they were banished but didn't bother to guard both trees so neither of them would have been able to eat it, but as you said it wouldn't because of carelessness as he is supposed to "test our will".

[Corvus]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

There was no death or suffering in the paradise that is the garden. After leaving Eve was cursed with pregnancy and they dealt with sickness and pain and death. It's not so much that they were immortal (though they technically would be), as death and pain did not exist while they were innocent. If you look back on my posts I made the point that to have knowledge is to know suffering. With the loss of their innocence they could no longer be safe. The fruit from the tree strips them of their innocence and subsequently their invulnerability.

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The tree itself was never guarded. Eden was guarded after they ate of the fruit to prevent them from re-entering paradise. There would be no point in any human eating from the tree again since both Adam and Eve already had.

I don't get what you're saying about God being worried about them living forever. He didn't want them to eat the fruit and the fruit is what took their invulnerability. He was afraid because they had the capacity to do evil after eating the fruit and the tools to see him objectively. The closest god can come to being overthrown would be to have humanity think him evil and do evil because they think god to be evil.

[Alienist]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

I have heard Adam and Eve would go through the cycle of life and death since they were banished. I heard that this is all to test humanity. I'm not sure what defines a "false god" A person pretending to be a god a or god that is showing you the wrong path? Yahweh has a consort implying that he was around other deities. Yahweh might have been part of a pantheon but chose to leave whatever pantheon he was a part of and established an area (Israel) for himself and those who worship him though.

He may not have wanted evil to enter into humanity but however he was worried that they would eat the tree of life and heavily guarded it. I can understand he might not want evil to enter into humanity but why is Yahweh worried of them living forever? It sort of implied he was afraid they'd be immortal and overthrow him as well.

[Corvus]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

If that was the case why did he plant the trees in the first place if he didn't want anyone to eat it? Unless he himself was eating the fruit as was the other deities and only he and the other gods and goddesses can eat from it. I always thought Yahweh was one of many deities, where they would eat from the trees like the tree of life to live longer, like the golden apples in Norse mythology where they would eat to replenish their life. Since Yahweh is known to be jealous, perhaps he didn't want more competition or feared humanities potential to overthrow him like Zeus once did.

In Abrahamic myths all other gods are false gods aside from God himself. There are parallels yes between many myths regarding divine food (Amrita, Ambrosia, Soma, ect) however there is no indication that God was eating the fruit himself. We cannot know what a deity thinks when doing things but perhaps the tree existed as a device of free will. For the humans to truly have free will there has to be a way for them to make significant choices. Maybe the tree existed with the potential to give knowledge and remove innocence as a way to allow humanity free will during that time in the garden. Aside from this what choices did Adam and Eve really make? They didn't want to leave, There's no evidence God asked anything of them. It's possible the tree existed as a mechanism to test free will, to create a scenario where free will becomes significant.

It's possible (like many things in holy texts) that the tree is also a metaphor. When Adam and Eve ate of the fruit it may have been a poetic way to say that they gradually came to understand good and evil. The tree may not actually exist in the strictest sense.

Maybe the tree is essential in God's plan for humanity. Since he is all knowing God expected humanity to fail him with the tree but the knowledge humanity gains allows them to have greater influence with their free will. With knowledge of good and evil individuals are tested. From Adam and Eve's failure, humanity was forced to grow and adapt. If Adam and Eve had not gained knowledge there could be no saint or sinner.

Perhaps the tree was essential for the formation of the universe. Humanity was ignorant of good and evil but there existed other creatures with free will. The Angels had their rebellion and they knew of knowledge. The knowledge of good and evil could be seen as a symbol of this rebellion. Knowledge begets new knowledge. Where the angels rebelled, the tree was made and the serpent tempted humanity to know of rebellion. In Christianity evil is essentially rebellion from the laws of God, and goodness is living in accordance with God's law. In this way the tree is a symbol of rebellion who's origins are not from God but from the very act of rebellion by his angels.

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I would also say that yes, God was afraid of humanity eating from the tree. However he was not afraid they would become stronger than him but that they would know of evil and bring evil into humanity. By committing evil one hurts God grievously.

[Medusa]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

I don't think he lied. No one said Adam and Eve were destined to live and die. He created them, but with no end date. Suddenly they are 'aware' and now they must go through the cycle of life and death. So no one lied.

[Alienist]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

If you see the Serpent as a metaphor, why not see the death part as a metaphor? When reading Genesis I assumed it was a metaphor since they obviously didn't die. What did die was their life in the garden, their innocence and safety. When they gained knowledge of good and evil from the tree they were no longer pure and so their innocence died. Knowledge of good and evil gives the potential for evil and thought over the concepts of good and evil. Where God is the universal good (supposedly) knowledge of good and evil allowed Adam and Eve to question the nature of God.

It's my opinion that the serpent did not lie. The serpent said to eat of the fruit was to become like god with the knowledge of right and wrong. However to do so is to invite suffering by knowing evil for what it is, which is symbolized by the suffering Adam and Eve endure after being ousted from Eden. To take a view which paints God is a more positive light, perhaps God wanted to avoid suffering in his creations because his own suffering stemmed from his knowledge.

It's also my opinion evil exists only when you understand something to be evil. For the human race evil could not exist until they knew of evil because they had no way to measure good or bad

If that was the case why did he plant the trees in the first place if he didn't want anyone to eat it? Unless he himself was eating the fruit as was the other deities and only he and the other gods and goddesses can eat from it. I always thought Yahweh was one of many deities, where they would eat from the trees like the tree of life to live longer, like the golden apples in Norse mythology where they would eat to replenish their life. Since Yahweh is known to be jealous, perhaps he didn't want more competition or feared humanities potential to overthrow him like Zeus once did.

[Claude]

Re: Why is the Serpent punished for telling the truth

But it doesn't deny the fact that Yahweh clearly lied saying they'd die if they ate it and the only reason he said that was to hope Adam and Even wouldn't eat it. Any knowledge isn't bad and having the knowledge of good and evil would be good wouldn't it, seeing how they'd have a better chance of telling what is right and what is wrong?

I'd like to just interject here for a second.

The way I was taught was that humans were immortal and innocent in the Garden. After the Fall of Man humans were made dirty and mortal. Under this mode of thought, which seems to be very popular in the Christian circles I've run in, Yahweh did not lie.

Knowledge can be an extremely destructive weapon because it shatters our illusions and makes us feel exposed. (Adam and Eve clothing themselves before God) Our minds are so limited that we create our own ideas of reality based on limited perception. When we are opened up to the bigger picture we often act erratically. Think of how many people research and reject certain tenets of Buddhism because they pose a greater truth that conflicts with the individual's limited truth. (Anatta) It's not because these things are complicated to understand but because accepting them forces the individual to reevaluate their idea of reality.

Another, more scientific example, would be evolution. Nearly everyone accepts evolution as a tool of the divine or the answer to the miracle of life. Others still hold out that it's a hoax. If you talk to them, they will defend their stance on faith without reason. This proves that they fear what it means if they accept evolution as fact. They believe that accepting it will destroy God and leave them empty.