Fiction and Religion

[Denarius]

Re: Fiction and Religion

Star Wars "is" the source of the Jedi teachings, and as such has to be held as the definitive description of the Force and what it is capable of.

You wanted a Jedi Master to teach you the ways of the Force. I found one, end of story. Just say you don't want to study under him, that's all this was. I said I'd train under a chi master for a year if you trained under a Jedi Master.

Instead of moving the goal posts or playing the No True Scotsman game, how about you just say "No, I don't want to. So you don't have to."

I'm still up for it if you are though.

[Aeran]

Re: Fiction and Religion

You wanted a Jedi Master to teach you the ways of the Force. I found one, end of story. Just say you don't want to study under him, that's all this was. I said I'd train under a chi master for a year if you trained under a Jedi Master.

Instead of moving the goal posts or playing the No True Scotsman game, how about you just say "No, I don't want to. So you don't have to."

I'm still up for it if you are though.

Repeating yourself over and over doesn't make your argument any less weak. Let's spell this out.

I can refer you to a Chi Kung Master (although technically speaking, that was never part of the argument, but for the sake of debate) who dedicated their life to a practice called Chi Kung, a practice which has been passed down from master to student over hundreds, if not thousands, of years and which can produced demonstrable, repeatable phenomenon described within a system of philosophy which goes back thousands of years as '"Chi." All of these, by the standards of those sources considered definitive on the subject (the masters themselves, past and present, and assorted Taoist and Buddhist source texts), make that individual a Chi Kung master.

On the flip side, we have the Jedi Practice of the Force, which is described definitively and exclusively in the Star Wars movies of George Lucas, including a specific set of qualifications, phenomena and capabilities which would specifically qualify one as a Jedi master - having been adopted by the Jedi order at a young age to be trained in the force, having been apprenticed out to a Master to continue their education, having crafted a light saber and being capable of wielding it in combat, having mastered the force and the various preterhuman powers it grants (telepathy, clairvoyance, precognition, psychokinesis, etc etc) and having been acknowledged as a Jedi Master by the Jedi Order and their own Master. All of these are absolute prerequisites to being described as a Jedi Master, laid out clearly in the only source material , and you can refer me to absolutely nobody who matches them.


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Of course the alternative you seem to be arguing for is that labels have no inherent meaning or purpose and that man is a Jedi Master just because he decided to call himself a Jedi Master, in which case I can call my dog a Jedi Master and study under her for a year (although I suspect the syllabus will primarily involve her begging for food and me kicking her out of my room when she farts).

[thalassa]

Re: Fiction and Religion

Stop bickering.

You both disagree, end of story. Stop beating the horse, its dead.

[Aeran]

Re: Fiction and Religion

Stop bickering.

You both disagree, end of story. Stop beating the horse, its dead.

Ease up. We're having fun - or at least I am, and Denarius is obviously enjoying himself enough to continue participating. We're all big boys here, nobody's feelings are getting hurt.

[thalassa]

Re: Fiction and Religion

Ease up. We're having fun - or at least I am, and Denarius is obviously enjoying himself enough to continue participating. We're all big boys here, nobody's feelings are getting hurt.

Other people use this forum too. Persons that might actually have an interest in this subject and don't necessairly want to read three pages of your "fun".

[Aeran]

Re: Fiction and Religion

It's not as though there's any other discussion going on in here to be disrupted.

But Denarius seems to have given up participating anyway, so it's a moot point. Besides, my dog is barking at me, she either wants me to feed or wants to teach me how to construct my first lightsaber, I'd better find out which

[Aikadon]

Re: Fiction and Religion

Thanks. I think i got an answer to my original question. And some additional reading.

[Medusa]

Re: Fiction and Religion

If it's old enough fiction well you know what happens. It becomes those 'true' religions everyone believes in. Because everyone who knows the truth of its origins is long dead. This is how I view all religions.

[anunitu]

Re: Fiction and Religion

Ya might consider L. Ron Hubbard,science fiction writer and founder of Scientology(Just saying)

[thalassa]

Re: Fiction and Religion

My problem with scientology isn'T that it is made up, my problem is the freaky stalker cult aspect.

[Torey]

Re: Fiction and Religion

How far can you take admiring a fictional tradition or religion? I was scrolling through the wikipedia Religions list, and under the category "Phony/parody religions" came Jedi, next to "the church of the flying spaghetti monster".

Personally, I feel like I qdmire the Jedi faith, and some of its philosophy and practice, so to have it bluntly called "Phony" before my eyes was... uncomfortable. And i have long since meditated on the Titan faith, the holy light, and the Elemental lords of the Warcraft universe, as well as the worship of the Nine Divines from the Elder Scrolls universe.

Is it... Wrong? Unmotivated? "Phony? To believe in, pray to, meditate on, or even worship beings depicted by humans in popular culture? I'm thinking, it's not like these entities are new. The Elemental lords are a personification of the elements, common in modern paganism, and for an example Talos is also very simular to some ancient religious entities.

So what are peoples thoughts on the matter? Am i "phony", or can i dare to take these thoughts seriously? Is there an aspect of the situation i'm not considering?

I think that one can take that admiration as far as they like. It's personal choice what one believes, regardless of whether others do or do not also believe - as long as your beliefs are your own and you aren't pushing them unfairly down the throats of others or allowing them to dictate a radical deviation in your ability to function as a member of society or a member of your family. I suppose, although I'm not a Wiccan and don't necessarily agree with anything in the Rede, it could be said, "an it harms none, do what thou wilt".

There are members on this forum who work with otherwise "fictional" deities, spirits, etc. In fact, we have one member who is a dedicant of Toothless the dragon from the film, "How To Train Your Dragon".

No one has the right to tell you that it's "wrong, phony, etc.". If it brings you satisfaction then go for it.

I've been attracted to aspects of various fictional universes, but I've never attempted to work with them at all because I differentiate between so-called "fictional" creations and established mythologies - that being said, Medusa and others have made a great point in that it could be said that all religions stemmed from something that someone essentially "just made up" based upon a combination of their personal experiences, perceptions of the world around them, cultures, etc. What is the ultimate difference between a mythological archetype and a modern fictional creation that emulates that archetype? One could argue intent behind the creation of the fictional emulation - but I believe that with enough belief and energy poured into it, such an "entity" could theoretically evolve into an Egregore. At that point, hypothetically, the intent surrounding its "invention" no longer matters.

I think that Star Wars' Jedi concept has a great deal to offer as a philosophy and ideology if not a literal interpretation of The Force as a natural unseen source of power within the Universe. I don't know that it's fair to say that we can better prove the existence of something simply because it's been around longer and has been practiced longer when talking about metaphysical concepts that cannot be definitively measured - I do, however, believe that the line may become blurred when it comes to what separates actual metaphysical phenomena from imagination.

Either way, if worshiping Tolkien's Valar or the Elder Scrolls' Akatosh gives one fulfillment, then they should be allowed to explore that paradigm without being ridiculed for it, even if the majority of people around them don't agree.

For reference, there are a great number of books written about the underlying religious themes within the Star Wars anthology:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=star%20wars%20religion&sprefix=star+wars+religi%2Cstripbooks&rh=i%3Astripbooks%2Ck%3Astar%20wars%20religion

[MaskedOne]

Re: Fiction and Religion

Star Wars has a Jedi dinosaur. Exempting that I'm not sure more than 10 people on the site know of this point beyond the fact that it's a point of trivia that I have far too much fun with, that fact alone should elevate its standing above mere fiction on weight of sheer, concentrated awesome.

Okay, I'm done being a Star Wars geek for the next 30 seconds. You may all return to your regular business.

[Rae'ya]

Re: Fiction and Religion

How far can you take admiring a fictional tradition or religion?

You can take it as far as you like.

I should add the caveat of 'within legal limits' or something like that but that is really up to the individual person. If one wished to sacrifice to Namira and eat the flesh of the sacrificed person then that would be one's religious and spiritual prerogative... the morality and legality (and ensuing consequences) are of course questionable, but people do a lot of socially unacceptable things in the name of religion. And of course I say all that with tongue firmly in cheek... but it illustrates my point.

Personally, I feel like I qdmire the Jedi faith, and some of its philosophy and practice, so to have it bluntly called "Phony" before my eyes was... uncomfortable. And i have long since meditated on the Titan faith, the holy light, and the Elemental lords of the Warcraft universe, as well as the worship of the Nine Divines from the Elder Scrolls universe.

I think that certain fictional faiths have a lot to offer in terms of serving as the foundation for a spiritual system. Sometimes even moreso than currently existing faiths, simply because they have been created and idealised by someone who has spent a great deal of time and energy on the process. And then a fanbase has come along, fleshed them out and given them life, so to speak. There is absolutely nothing invalid or phony about that at all, in my opinion.

Is it... Wrong? Unmotivated? "Phony? To believe in, pray to, meditate on, or even worship beings depicted by humans in popular culture? I'm thinking, it's not like these entities are new. The Elemental lords are a personification of the elements, common in modern paganism, and for an example Talos is also very simular to some ancient religious entities.

If you are a pantheist, absolutely not. Using a fictional deity as the interface through which you interact with the Divine is not at all wrong or unmotivated. I would argue that there is very little difference between that and using an established mythological deity as the interface.

If you are a hard polytheist then it is a little trickier, because we could argue that fictional deities do not have a literal presence in Thisworld or the Otherworlds. BUT... as a hard polytheist I absolutely believe that the consistent and widespread belief and worship of fictional deities creates egregores. Essentially, if enough people believe in and worship a figure like Zenithar, then a being will come into existence who embodies everything that a) the Elder Scrolls series tells us about Zenithar, and b) everything that millions of people around the world feel and experience when they meditate upon Zenithar. And at that point, who can argue that it is wrong to worship a being that actually 'exists'?

Am i "phony", or can i dare to take these thoughts seriously? Is there an aspect of the situation i'm not considering?

You are not phony at all. Aside from everything else that I've said, there is actually a well established neo-pagan tradition of working with fictional and pop-culture figures. It is certainly not a new concept and is something that is becoming more and more widespread. The momentum is already there... in ten or twenty or fifty years time, these beings are going to be just as 'real' as any deity from ancient mythology.

[Aeran]

Re: Fiction and Religion

Although I would love to see an example of people manipulating the biomagnetic field to the same degree with biofeedback.

I wasn't trying to be snide here, I really would like to see any material on that.

[Ektor]

Re: Fiction and Religion

I believe that anything that can make you feel connected to something bigger and more spiritual is valid as a religious symbol. Religions are just representations, anyway.