9 year old shot gun instructor with an uzi

[thalassa]

Re: 9 year old shot gun instructor with an uzi

Honestly, I have no problem with gun play for kids--its developmentally appropriate, particularly for (most) boys (and eff the pc crowd, there are gender differences between most boys and girls, in terms of their temperament and behavior). I have no problem with toy guns that look like toys (water guns, nerf guns) being used for play and being shot at one another. Kids use play to learn boundaries, to act out their fantasy, to act out their feelings, and to learn context. Banning something makes it taboo, and taboo=tempting. Kids know the difference between something that is a toy and something that is not. If you let them play with the toy, it takes some of the temptation from the taboo of the real thing. If you let them play with the toy, you can let them engage in the fantasy aspect of expressing themselves. Then, you can teach them to use the tool (in this case a gun) in its proper context...really, a toy gun should be treated no differently than a toy car or a toy kitchen or toy construction equipment.

[Doc_Holliday]

Re: 9 year old shot gun instructor with an uzi

Jesus, way too much heat for somebody so small. Whats wrong with a kid having fun plinking with a .22 pistol or rifle? Or even slightly larger calibres in semi or single shot modes? Anyways, I agree with whats been said. Full auto is hard even for an adult. I've shot a calibre as large as .308 in full auto, that being my general limit of control. But that took years of getting used to handling firearms. This little girl should not have been with that weapon, tragic all around. I hope she doesn't blame herself because it isn't her fault.

[MaskedOne]

Re: 9 year old shot gun instructor with an uzi

Actually, this is a very common misconception, that has been used over the years and has not really been pushed by the federal government. The Right to bear arms was originally instituted due to the need of a colonial militia. As we are no longer in that type of situation, it can be argued that the ownership of firearms in the privater sector is not protected by the Constitution.

It can be argued, sure. The Supreme Court has said it that such a position is wrong in two recent cases if memory serves but you can argue whatever you please. The court may eventually reverse itself, it has before.

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: 9 year old shot gun instructor with an uzi

our founding fathers gave us the rights in the constitution for a reason.

making restrictions on what we were promised in our constitution

Actually, this is a very common misconception, that has been used over the years and has not really been pushed by the federal government. The Right to bear arms was originally instituted due to the need of a colonial militia. As we are no longer in that type of situation, it can be argued that the ownership of firearms in the privater sector is not protected by the Constitution.

[loststarshine]

Re: 9 year old shot gun instructor with an uzi

I've got no issues with gun ownership, gun safety, or even with children learning the correct usage of firearms. The issue I have comes down to WHAT firearms are available to people. I really see no need for non-military/ipolice forces to have access to automatic weapons. If you want to own a rifle, or a shotgun, or a pistol, sure .. go for it. But an AK, uzi? There's no reason for that.

I have an issue with only the military and police having access to that. Martial law concerns me our founding fathers gave us the rights in the constitution for a reason. I see no need for a police officer to have automatic weapons. History shows us coruption in people with power is a reality. Im not saying in my lifetime or the next but making restrictions on what we were promised in our constitution are steps in the wrong direction

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: 9 year old shot gun instructor with an uzi

I've got no issues with gun ownership, gun safety, or even with children learning the correct usage of firearms. The issue I have comes down to WHAT firearms are available to people. I really see no need for non-military/police forces to have access to automatic weapons. If you want to own a rifle, or a shotgun, or a pistol, sure .. go for it. But an AK, uzi? There's no reason for that.

[loststarshine]

Re: 9 year old shot gun instructor with an uzi

Ri

See we dont have this. We shoot each other woth fake guns all the time. Its my neices favourite thing to do when she comes over.

But then I've only seen a gun on a cops hip. You need to do a tafe course to even get a gun license here, and you cant buy guns just cos you feel like it.

I have no issue with some amount of gun culture in america, but we have none of it here, and as far as I know, we don't have these kinds of issues.

Guns in childrens reach at my households. After my dad enlisted he said he had a whole different view on children pretending to kill people and laughing about it. Death is real not pretend. Then again i was raised watching horror movies so i dont claim my life to be considered normal. My dad was down with pretending to be animals and pretending to kill an animal. My dads not one to ban guns or be against learning how to shoot but guns require great respect. Even toy guns. It went along with the manners acting respectfully is most important value to him. I was raised by semi hippies (moms more conservative and dedicated christian

[Heka]

Agreed.

In my household as a child i was taught not to point toy guns at people and you dont pretend to shoot someone. If that gun was real someone would be injured or killed and thats not a game to play. Water guns were the exception to that household rule. I think its ridiculous the extend schools are going to because of toy guns in class unless they looked realistic enough to be considered real. School shootings are tragic but playing with toy guns do not equal a child murderer. Instead i would like to see the schools treat children guilty of bullying to the same degree. Got off topic sorry im just sick of hearing kids suspended and forced too seek a psych evaluation for bringing toys to school.

See we dont have this. We shoot each other woth fake guns all the time. Its my neices favourite thing to do when she comes over.

But then I've only seen a gun on a cops hip. You need to do a tafe course to even get a gun license here, and you cant buy guns just cos you feel like it.

I have no issue with some amount of gun culture in america, but we have none of it here, and as far as I know, we don't have these kinds of issues.

[nbdy]

Re: 9 year old shot gun instructor with an uzi

It was a terrible mistake by parents, by the instructor, but it is the child who has to live with it. That is the tragedy. I was probably about that age when I fired a shotgun for the first time. Granddad put a dummy load in it and the point was to just get the feel of the weapon ... it had some kick, too. Anyway, I have no problem with guns in the same way that I have no problem with drinking, it only works if the user understands the responsibility, and children do not. For what it's worth.

[loststarshine]

Re: 9 year old shot gun instructor with an uzi

Probably an entirely different discussion, lest we throw the topic too far off course, but...

I think part of the problem is the inevitability of this becoming the anti-gun vs gun nut thing, again. Why does this topic always come down to "those people" want to ban all guns vs "those people" want to arm kids with bazookas? Why can't we ignore both groups of "these people" (because they are both extremist nut jobs) and come to terms? Its about time the people in the middle spoke up and took a stand for some common sense laws and restrictions. Instead of putting up with small children getting kicked out of school for developmentally appropriate play, while felons are buying guns through legal loopholes.

Agreed.

In my household as a child i was taught not to point toy guns at people and you dont pretend to shoot someone. If that gun was real someone would be injured or killed and thats not a game to play. Water guns were the exception to that household rule. I think its ridiculous the extend schools are going to because of toy guns in class unless they looked realistic enough to be considered real. School shootings are tragic but playing with toy guns do not equal a child murderer. Instead i would like to see the schools treat children guilty of bullying to the same degree. Got off topic sorry im just sick of hearing kids suspended and forced too seek a psych evaluation for bringing toys to school.

[thalassa]

Re: 9 year old shot gun instructor with an uzi

I wasn't comparing the tragic aspect...I was comparing the inevitable backlash from the anti-gun folks...

I agree this is 100% more horrible and stupid.

Probably an entirely different discussion, lest we throw the topic too far off course, but...

I think part of the problem is the inevitability of this becoming the anti-gun vs gun nut thing, again. Why does this topic always come down to "those people" want to ban all guns vs "those people" want to arm kids with bazookas? Why can't we ignore both groups of "these people" (because they are both extremist nut jobs) and come to terms? Its about time the people in the middle spoke up and took a stand for some common sense laws and restrictions. Instead of putting up with small children getting kicked out of school for developmentally appropriate play, while felons are buying guns through legal loopholes.

[Rowanwood]

Re: 9 year old shot gun instructor with an uzi

Yes, more grannies might drown in a bathtub every year, but somehow, I find this a bit more tragic.

I wasn't comparing the tragic aspect...I was comparing the inevitable backlash from the anti-gun folks...

I agree this is 100% more horrible and stupid.

[thalassa]

Re: 9 year old shot gun instructor with an uzi

I think this is idiotic. I blame a) insurance companies that would insure a place that thinks this a good idea b) range owners that would find this to be a responsible practice, c) an instructor that would find this to be smart, d) and parents that apparently don't have enough common sense to think this is a bad idea or enough balls to tell their RamboBarbie wanna-be "no, you need to wait til you are older and do some conditioning and work up to it"...maybe even an e) because these four systems apparently fail, I'll blame the gun lobby and gun nuts because *heaven forbid* we have some common sense laws or self-imposed industry standards (the latter of which I can honestly tell you, considering what I now do for a living, never work) about age and weapon and training appropriateness.

I like guns. I like to go shooting, its fun. We are gun owners. My kids will take a gun safety course or two whether they want to or not because I think that every child in this country should know how to safely handle something that is easily found in people's homes, cars, and persons. They will develop a healthy respect for the lethality and finality of a fire arm--Dad's family are law enforcment, Mom and Dad (and so are some grandparents and great-grandparents) are veterans, and both our families hunt.

Now, because of four or five levels of stoopit, a family has lost their loved one, and a child has to live the rest of her life knowing she killed someone's father/brother/son/husband.

Yes, more grannies might drown in a bathtub every year, but somehow, I find this a bit more tragic.

(Most drownings are a result of children under the age of 5 unsupervised around household sources of water--buckets, toilets, tubs, African American (and other low income minority children) between the ages of 9-11 (or 7-13 per some stats) because they don't have access to swimming lessons, and young men between 17 and 24 because they do dumb things like jump off a roof onto a trampoline into the pool)

[B. de Corbin]

Re: 9 year old shot gun instructor with an uzi

That being said, I'm curious as to what the instructor's qualifications were in regards to firearms training. I'm fairly sure that the NRA doesn't issue a training qualification in fully-automatic weapons.

From what I've seen in the news, he was ex-military, and trained in the use of automatic weapons. On top of that, he was an instructor at the range, and *should* have known the correct way to manage an untrained shooter.

Technically, he *should* have had his hand on top of hers on the weapon, in order to compensate for the inevitable muzzle rise (people who aren't familiar with shooting - like the young girl - usually don't understand that recoil forces the muzzle up and off target - no matter how good or how strong the shooter is - and that auto fire weapons increase this exponentially). But he didn't keep control of the weapon as an instructor should.

It was a bad mistake, and mistakes can be tragic - but it was his mistake, his error, and he paid a heavy price for making it.

[Torey]

Re: 9 year old shot gun instructor with an uzi

I agree with Corbin - fully automatic weapons are very difficult to control for even an average adult who already has experience and familiarity with standard semi-automatic weapons. A typical 9-year-old wouldn't have the physical strength to appropriately control the recoil - so I don't understand what the instructor was thinking.

That being said, I'm curious as to what the instructor's qualifications were in regards to firearms training. I'm fairly sure that the NRA doesn't issue a training qualification in fully-automatic weapons.