Torture: The good news is...

[anunitu]

Re: Torture: The good news is...

This is the negative side of being the "Good guy" country,wearing the white hat comes with a lot of rules about no-no's

[MaskedOne]

Re: Torture: The good news is...

If the gov.'t is desperate enough, there's also a potential (as in the exact phrasing might allow it but I wouldn't want to be the guy to test it) way around 5 but against current opposition the bypass might incur rioting in the streets so it'd be better to just find other routes.

[anunitu]

Re: Torture: The good news is...

Nice try B. De.,points for thinking,less points for jumping to quickly into a marsh of much bog and mud...Or is that Mire..getting mired in a swamp of quicksand,and having no floatation device..

[MaskedOne]

Re: Torture: The good news is...

Shrug, breach of either still presents problems but a defense against charges related to 8 is much, much easier than defending against accusations connected to 5.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Torture: The good news is...

If you're going to use the Constitution to be snarky then use the correct Amendment. Torture as a tool of interrogation is a breach of Amendment 5 and your protections against self incrimination. The only way the Eigth has any bearing whatsoever is if a court decides after you've been convicted to sentence you to 5 years of daily torture or some equivalent nonsense that the CIA generally has better ways to kill time than get involved with.

Oops...

Caught by the cops yet again. So much for a quicky internet search...

[MaskedOne]

Re: Torture: The good news is...

Maybe they should change the Eighth Amendment from: "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted," to: "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted, unless some dude in the CIA who is not answerable for his actions in an American, or any other, court of law decides it would be a good idea."

If you're going to use the Constitution to be snarky then use the correct Amendment. Torture as a tool of interrogation is a breach of Amendment 5 and your protections against self incrimination. The only way the Eigth has any bearing whatsoever is if a court decides after you've been convicted to sentence you to 5 years of daily torture or some equivalent nonsense that the CIA generally has better ways to kill time than get involved with.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Torture: The good news is...

Maybe they should change the Eighth Amendment from: "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted," to: "Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted, unless some dude in the CIA who is not answerable for his actions in an American, or any other, court of law decides it would be a good idea."

[ThePaganMafia]

Re: Torture: The good news is...

I had an interesting discussion with a Army interrogator one day who basically said what was going on in the Middle East in regards to interrogation was like the Wild West. Anything goes. Of course this was 5 or 6 years ago and I was but a lowly Private.

[Medusa]

Re: Torture: The good news is...

I'll be honest. I might be swayed either way depending upon the situation. I'm not holding firm to my opinion on this. Things are very gray and I can't possibly decide on a whim where the line is. I'm guessing it's probably like that in the real world with this as well.

[anunitu]

Re: Torture: The good news is...

The real problem is WE(As in the country of the United States of America) signed accords banning certain acts in a war. Now in the modern world some "Leaders" have been tried in the world court for committing acts banned under these agreements. If you disagree,or agree that torture is needed,it does NOT make these agreements we signed onto go away.

Some have gone as far as to request that G. W, Bush be tried in the world court for war crimes...Geneva is not something you go along with until you decide you don't. In or out,that is how it works.

[Medusa]

Re: Torture: The good news is...

We've already confirmed that methods outside the manual are used. Several of them have also had both their legality and their efficiency challenged. I posted the manual because you decided to boil all interrogation methods outside direct questioning (which counter-intuitively actually works a lot of times) down to torture without presenting a source to support such a claim. The actual book on the subject has a wide variety of options, very few of which actually involve going out of one's way to scare the subject. Hell, sometimes the goal is actually to calm the subject down because they're too scared to be useful.

I did indeed do some more reading. You are right there are all sorts of other techniques. I even browsed through the Geneva Convention just to get a better glimpse of things. So there's a list of things to do other than torture. I agree. And I still think torture still has a place in interrogation.

And I'm willing to bet that the techniques actually being used are landing somewhere between your pdf guidelines and the side of actual practice of torture.

You want other techniques to be used. You are right. They are being used. But I'm pretty sure they are not all 'per guidelines'. I'm just being practical is all. And now I have to go to bed!

[MaskedOne]

Re: Torture: The good news is...

We've already confirmed that methods outside the manual are used. Several of them have also had both their legality and their efficiency challenged. I posted the manual because you decided to boil all interrogation methods outside direct questioning (which counter-intuitively actually works a lot of times) down to torture without presenting a source to support such a claim. The actual book on the subject has a wide variety of options, very few of which actually involve going out of one's way to scare the subject. Hell, sometimes the goal is actually to calm the subject down because they're too scared to be useful.

[Medusa]

Re: Torture: The good news is...

Ok I did do some light reading on this. But I won't be able to read the whole thing.
1 because honestly if you think the military does ONLY what's outlined in that pdf...well. No. I won't ever buy that.
2. I did get into the first part. The objective. Each interrogation must be done for a definitive purpose.
Could be specific. Or you know...general. Whatevs I guess. Lol. Riiiiiiiight.


I'm not the right person to argue human rights or military laws. Why? Because I realize we aren't suppose to go for torture. We aren't supposed to support it or want it. We are supposed to hate it and deter it. But I'm an honest gal. My reason is simple. Some scum who wants to blow up some said innocent population probably has done a lot of inhuman violations of said human laws. So eff him or her. Get the info out of them the most effective way proven. But if that doesn't work? Well you have to have that back up of torture. I mean it's there. We can't be fighting wars of 2014 like it was a war of 1914 and having 'rules' of proper engagement.

Don't go to a gun fight with a sword etc etc.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Torture: The good news is...

Lesbereal. Those 'other methods'? You know those are torture. Just trussed up pretty. Maybe a needle of truth serum here. Maybe a 'your mother's body is in a ditch being eaten by dogs' here. Maybe a Let's pee on your religious bible tossed in. Maybe a 'rotting' soup for brunch.

http://fas.org/irp/doddir/army/fm34-52.pdf

Is the army field manual on interrogation techniques that was current as of 1992. Chapter 3 regards the actual approach methods. Strangely even the minority of approach methods based within the overall emotional approach method that involved creating fear come complete with some stringent prohibitions. I will be more than happy to view any credible source you're willing and able to provide on government methods of interrogation since this version is rather old and I'm not gonna look for a new one tonight.

[Medusa]

Re: Torture: The good news is...

Lesbereal. Those 'other methods'? You know those are torture. Just trussed up pretty. Maybe a needle of truth serum here. Maybe a 'your mother's body is in a ditch being eaten by dogs' here. Maybe a Let's pee on your religious bible tossed in. Maybe a 'rotting' soup for brunch.

It's like how we don't like the death penalty because the chopping of the head was inhuman.
So we decided to do some burning at the steak.
But that was inhuman.
Let's hang em.
Nope. Inhuman.
Oh shot to the head by many marksmen.
You know..inhuman.
Electrocution!
noooope.
hm....gas!
oh hell nope.
Needle!
Meh. You are getting close.
Oh a drug that puts them to 'sleep' before you kill them!
BINGO!


(tiny print: drug makes you look dead to those killing you but you are completely aware of what's going on. But it looks humane so it's a go)

That's how that other method thing really works.

*takes off tinfoil beret