Right or Wrong #1: Death Penalty

[Medusa]

Re: Right or Wrong #1: Death Penalty

I absolutely understand and respect that too. And then there are degrees of murder, like... accidental manslaughter or whatever the correct sentence is. Or there are people are just.... psychopaths and just feel they need to kill without rhyme or reason (which is where I support capital punishment). There are just so many gradients too.

Yes, there are many gradients. Thus many rules for many crimes.

[Willow]

Re: Right or Wrong #1: Death Penalty

It's not about the money for me either. I mean I'm supporting all kinds of things in the end. Feeding you. Killing you. Whatevs.

It's about consequences for me. If you murder you forfeit your right to anything else..including life. I mean the murderer is doing this. Forfeiting someone's life for whatever they deem ok with in their mind. We are doing the same. You want to be ok with making that decision to end a life...then someone's gonna do the same for you. It seems fair to me. But I know I'm an extreme personality on this.

I absolutely understand and respect that too. And then there are degrees of murder, like... accidental manslaughter or whatever the correct sentence is. Or there are people are just.... psychopaths and just feel they need to kill without rhyme or reason (which is where I support capital punishment). There are just so many gradients too.

[Medusa]

Re: Right or Wrong #1: Death Penalty

This is about my stance too.

We did a debate once, and I had to defend the pro-death penalty side (we didn't get to choose which side, the point was to push us out of comfort zones); anyway one of the biggest and all-permeating reasons for death penalty was the amount of money people pay to keep murderers fed, clothed, sheltered, etc... in prisons and with the death penalty there's a one-time fee for the termination cost and that's the end of the financial investment. Which to me... basically comes down to this: money > humans.

I don't know, just something about that mentality irks me. If it was more a case of : some people are just wired to kill repeatedly because it's something they enjoy doing and they feel that need to do it, and no amount of therapy or medication will stunt that, I would probably look at it a bit differently (although there are some ethical and circumstantial issues in all that too).

It's not about the money for me either. I mean I'm supporting all kinds of things in the end. Feeding you. Killing you. Whatevs.

It's about consequences for me. If you murder you forfeit your right to anything else..including life. I mean the murderer is doing this. Forfeiting someone's life for whatever they deem ok with in their mind. We are doing the same. You want to be ok with making that decision to end a life...then someone's gonna do the same for you. It seems fair to me. But I know I'm an extreme personality on this.

[Willow]

Re: Right or Wrong #1: Death Penalty

On principle... some crimes warrant execution.

In practice, I have issues with the number of mistakes we make on the subject.

End result, there are a number of people who I won't regret the execution of in the slightest but if placed on a legislature and told to vote yea or nea on the existence of capital punishment in the US* there's a passable chance that I'll vote nea.

* I qualify this because the US (and a lot of other places) possess relatively reliable means to keep prisoners contained. You put me somewhere I don't have such a massive set of institutions at my disposal and the rules will change very quickly. If I can't reliably contain monsters indefinitely then I'll happily back killing them.

This is about my stance too.

We did a debate once, and I had to defend the pro-death penalty side (we didn't get to choose which side, the point was to push us out of comfort zones); anyway one of the biggest and all-permeating reasons for death penalty was the amount of money people pay to keep murderers fed, clothed, sheltered, etc... in prisons and with the death penalty there's a one-time fee for the termination cost and that's the end of the financial investment. Which to me... basically comes down to this: money > humans.

I don't know, just something about that mentality irks me. If it was more a case of : some people are just wired to kill repeatedly because it's something they enjoy doing and they feel that need to do it, and no amount of therapy or medication will stunt that, I would probably look at it a bit differently (although there are some ethical and circumstantial issues in all that too).

[Medusa]

Re: Right or Wrong #1: Death Penalty

That's true, but they weren't killed with my taxpayer dollars.

Oh you have no real idea what your taxpayer dollars are really paying for. To put a murderer to death is the least of our worries.

[anunitu]

Re: Right or Wrong #1: Death Penalty

Well,that is also a grey area because your tax dollars go to the military as well,and that includes the big drones that bring death from above....

[Redfaery]

Re: Right or Wrong #1: Death Penalty

I feel that.

But technically many innocent people are killed by murderers too.

That's true, but they weren't killed with my taxpayer dollars.

[Norse_Angel]

Re: Right or Wrong #1: Death Penalty

I feel that.

But technically many innocent people are killed by murderers too.

Absolutely agreed. It's such a grey area when it comes to this.

[Medusa]

Re: Right or Wrong #1: Death Penalty

I find this article quite disturbing on the topic. Many innocent people have been executed, and when new information comes, proving their innocence, there is nothing one can do for that person.
http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/exec...sibly-innocent

I feel that.

But technically many innocent people are killed by murderers too.

[Norse_Angel]

Re: Right or Wrong #1: Death Penalty

I find this article quite disturbing on the topic. Many innocent people have been executed, and when new information comes, proving their innocence, there is nothing one can do for that person.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/executed-possibly-innocent

[MaskedOne]

Re: Right or Wrong #1: Death Penalty

I think some people don't get how to separate this from how the death penalty is actually carried out.

I mean, I don't support the death penalty because the system sucks...but I totally think that some things are so heinous that the perpetrators deserve to die (and TBH, they deserve to die in ways far more brutal than lethal injection).

Your opening post treats it as a system instead of the straightforward do people occasionally deserve to die. Even if we improve the system, human error will continue to factor in. Now offer me a perfect system (and convince me that it is what it claims)...

I'm on record (on PF, even) advocating tactics that would make Vlad Tepes proud in response to certain behavior and I'm not at all apologetic about it.

[Medusa]

Re: Right or Wrong #1: Death Penalty

Exactly. I support the death penalty. But not because you crossed a double line or something. And NOT on soley circumstantial evidence either. I've watched enough Law and Order to know better. Like 25 years of that show!

[anunitu]

Re: Right or Wrong #1: Death Penalty

I do agree with that Thal for some..Like the two from I think conn. Raped and burned wife and daughters and beat the husband who was lucky to survive the whole thing..Both of them went states on the other trying to save their own butts from the death penalty. Do both of them I say,and that's just how I feel in that case.

- - - Updated - - -

This one.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/07/ny...pagewanted=all

[thalassa]

Re: Right or Wrong #1: Death Penalty

"morally justifiable under certain conditions" doesn't mean it must be done. It just means that there are some crimes so bad that the perpetrator deserves to die for committing them.

I think some people don't get how to separate this from how the death penalty is actually carried out.

I mean, I don't support the death penalty because the system sucks...but I totally think that some things are so heinous that the perpetrators deserve to die (and TBH, they deserve to die in ways far more brutal than lethal injection).

[Hawkfeathers]

Re: Right or Wrong #1: Death Penalty

Having personally lost 3 people I cared about to murder, my thoughts on this are probably skewed. One (NJ) is still unsolved. In the 2nd case (MO), 1 perp got life and the other pled down and got 18 (?) years. In the 3rd case (CA), the 2 perps got life with no chance of parole.

In the 2nd case, I believe the testimony that things got out of control. It was a robbery gone wrong. In the 3rd, it was clearly pre-meditated, and unspeakably brutal. The perps weren't immediately arrested and actually attended the funeral and laughed at the victim's family. There's a difference. Yes, people still died. But there's a difference between Hannibal Lechter and some bumbling crackhead who might at least get clean and make something of themselves.

There are degrees of guilt and of intent - all of which complicate things. In a perfect world, I'd say "No death penalty; let them work to support themselves in prison to eliminate the taxpayer funding." But it's far from a perfect world. To paraphrase Bill Clinton's words about abortion - I believe the death penalty should exist, but be rare.