We are Borg. Hive mind?

[Kiesha'ra]

Re: We are Borg. Hive mind?

This was very interesting, the entire idea reminds me of Carl Jung's theory (and Einstein's) on the collective unconscious. Like how two people who have never met on opposite sides of the world can be inspired to write the exact same story. Then of course you have string theory that ties into it how two particles across the universe can be identical without having contact (i may be getting that wrong but anyone who knows physics knows what I mean with that Cern experiment.) Thought Reality.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: We are Borg. Hive mind?

You had brought up the idea of the search for sentience, rather than the search for intelligence. As a pet "owner", it is hard to understand how it is that folks are ready to say that animals do not have sentience...

I have never understood it either...

Here's what I do know about it:

We have several cats. Amongst themselves they form particular "friendships." Itybitykity (our cat names might seem strange, but they are descriptive) is best friends with Fat Ralph. They generally spend nap time curled up together. Understanding each of their unique "personalities" I have a pretty good idea why they are BFFs.

One cat, Badkitty, has picked me for best bud. She sits next to me, pokes me in the face (gently) until I pay attention to her. If I ignore her, she head buttes me. When I acknowledge her presence, she rolls over for a belly rub. When I go to bed she runs in front of me and lays down between wife & I for a belly rub. When she's done, she sleeps just outside the bedroom door waiting for me to get up to go to the B-room (I'm old. I do that several times a night), then repeats the belly rub procedure. I'm pretty sure Badkitty loves me...

However, there have been times where I have spoken about animals using terms like "friendship," "personalities," "love," and have been told that, since I don't know how an animal actually "feels" (assuming they feel at all), I am anthropomorphasising (did I spell that right? ). So there is that attitude.

Then there is an experiment to find out if an animal is "self aware." The way it was done is to put a brightly colored sticker on the animal's head, then, put the animal in front of a mirror. If the animal in some way indicates that it knows the sticker it sees on the head of the animal in the mirror is on it, the scientist says "Oh! That animal can recognize itself in the mirror so it is aware of itself as an independent being, therefore it is self aware..." Not too many critters pass this test...

But I say "There is a major flaw with that experiment! Sight doesn't mean that much to most animals. If they want to find out if my dog can recognize itself, they'll need to do an experiment with smell!"

No need to bother... My dog can recognize it's own smell. Not sure I can recognize my own smell, though, unless it's a fart. If it's mine, it won't smell as bad...

But things have changed, not just amongst animal lovering weirdos like ourselves:

After 2,500 Studies, It's Time to Declare Animal Sentience Proven

And here's this:

It's possible to write the video off as the work of other animal loving weirdos, but I've reviewed some research. The evidence looks good to me, it matches my experience, and so, until given reason to do otherwise, I'll go with it...

[anunitu]

Re: We are Borg. Hive mind?

Also parrots will go crazy if they do not have social interaction with humans and other birds

Here.
http://avianenrichment.com/learn/emo...al-interaction

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: We are Borg. Hive mind?

You had brought up the idea of the search for sentience, rather than the search for intelligence. As a pet "owner", it is hard to understand how it is that folks are ready to say that animals do not have sentience. One of the generally agreed upon definitions is that of self awareness, feelings, and independent thought. I have three cats, and each one has a very distinct personality of its own. They respond differently to stimuli, interact differently with me and others, and even have their own unique ways of doing things such as eating, playing, and even using the litter box. If they were, as some suggested, just mindless animals, why would they act so differently from one another? One theory would be that they were raised differently and n different environments before being brought together. But that is not really the case. Two out of the three have been with me since they were kittens, and the third has been with the other two for 8 years now. If it is the case that they are not self-aware, why then have they not become "reflections" of each other in their behavior and attitudes?

One cat will not simply put her face into the food or water bowl in order to eat. Instead, she will use her paw to scoop out the kibble/water, bring it to her mouth, and eat it that way. I had done a little research into that and while some like to think this is due to a dislike of having the bowl touching her whiskers, she has not always done this. Perhaps she is simply mimicking the way I eat and drink, using my "paws" to bring the food to my mouth, or just finds it more entertaining to do so. This change in behavior for no apparent reason is a sure sign of awareness in her actions, and how others perform the same actions.

When I don't feel well, they crowd around me, and are generally more affectionate towards me, and the other day when my parents were visiting, they exhibited awareness of pain and discomfort in others as well. My mother is recovering from a knee replacement, and instead of crawling across her legs as usual, the cats, once aware through smell and observing my mom's actions (favoring that particular knee) , went out of their way to avoid putting pressure upon it, walking across her upper thigh on that side instead. One even went so far as to give the knee in question a lick and to gently bump it with her head.

I could go on and on about it, from grooming, to senses of humor, to playing, but that would take hours. The point is, it doesn't happen just with cats, but with many different animals, though most often in mammals and avians. They know who they and what they are in relation to each other and in relation to other species. They dream, they feel pain, compassion, sorrow, joy ... Isn't that sentience?

[B. de Corbin]

Re: We are Borg. Hive mind?

That what you meant by hive mind??? people want to know,or even better be entertained

Named after bee hives. The idea is generally that a group of non-conscious entities join together and, en-mass, form a couscous entity. That would fit in with the cells.

But it is also possible - as in a hive mind of humans - that the minds of conscious entities can link together to generate what is essentially one conscious entity, like the Borg.

Now, though, the author of the article I linked to is suggesting that we may already be composed of at least two separate consciousnesses that act as one, but can, under certain conditions, act as two independent consciousnesses.

Here's Alan Alda 'splainin' it:

And here's the story of the guy mentioned in the article who has an atheist brain and a theist brain (I think the guy in the video is Ramachandram. I've read one of his books):

[thalassa]

Re: We are Borg. Hive mind?

Second, about the octopus...

We spend a lot of time talking about "intelligence." How intelligent is this animal? Are there intelligent life on other planets?

But, it seems to me that, when we use it to make judgements, we are actually making judgements based on how well another life form is able to make use of a particular human adaptation. The questions we are actually asking are: How much like me is this animal? Is there life like me on other planets?

I can imagine my Beagle, with it's adaptation of a supremely developed sense of smell asking the same questions (not literally, it would require human-like intelligence, but as a thought experiment)... My Beagle would want to know: How well does that animal use it's nose? I would be unbelievably stupid to a Beagle. My Beagle would want to know if there is life on other planets that can derive detailed information by smelling poop...

We should switch from looking for intelligence to looking for sentience. Is there sentience on other planets? Sentience is much more interesting than intelligence. My computer is much smarter than I will ever be, but my Beagle makes better company. I suspect that is because my computer is not sentient, but my Beagle has some degree of sentience.

But before we can look for sentience on other planets we should to look around us and learn to find the sentience right here on earth. If, though, we shift our focus from "intelligence" to "sentience" we will end up having to admit that we have a long history of enslaving, tormenting, killing, and eating sentient beings.

1) I agree with this

2) it made me think of this:

~from the article on consciousness and the problem of mind-body reductionism Thomas Nagel, 1974

[anunitu]

Re: We are Borg. Hive mind?

There was a weird idea that what we are is a collective of intelligent cells,all of our cells doing their job of keeping the collective working. not unlike a bee hive,with the bees being our cells...

That what you meant by hive mind??? people want to know,or even better be entertained

[B. de Corbin]

Re: We are Borg. Hive mind?

if I can dump my consciousness into *something else* and it begins to have new experiences, it becomes a different consciousness than the one still in my body.........


..................seem to think that this has been more than one episode of Star Trek

There was the episode with two Rikers - the same person, unknowingly duplicated at a particular point in his life. The two individual were at first identical, but because of subsequent experiences became two specific individuals... There was the question of "Who is the real Will Riker?" The answer was "both."

Which is what would happen, I think.

So anyway, a few thoughts...

First, Hawkfeathers will be glad to see that her perceptions that parrots are pretty much as sentient as humans are is confirmed.

Second, about the octopus...

We spend a lot of time talking about "intelligence." How intelligent is this animal? Are there intelligent life on other planets?

But, it seems to me that, when we use it to make judgements, we are actually making judgements based on how well another life form is able to make use of a particular human adaptation. The questions we are actually asking are: How much like me is this animal? Is there life like me on other planets?

I can imagine my Beagle, with it's adaptation of a supremely developed sense of smell asking the same questions (not literally, it would require human-like intelligence, but as a thought experiment)... My Beagle would want to know: How well does that animal use it's nose? I would be unbelievably stupid to a Beagle. My Beagle would want to know if there is life on other planets that can derive detailed information by smelling poop...

We should switch from looking for intelligence to looking for sentience. Is there sentience on other planets? Sentience is much more interesting than intelligence. My computer is much smarter than I will ever be, but my Beagle makes better company. I suspect that is because my computer is not sentient, but my Beagle has some degree of sentience.

But before we can look for sentience on other planets we should to look around us and learn to find the sentience right here on earth. If, though, we shift our focus from "intelligence" to "sentience" we will end up having to admit that we have a long history of enslaving, tormenting, killing, and eating sentient beings.

That's gonna hurt.

But we'll take much more enjoyment from the company of other beings...

And, finally, I got my psych degree way back in the 80s. At the time, severing the Corpus Colosum was a new procedure that led to a wholly unexpected result. I watched & discussed the films of the results in class. It certainly looked like there were suddenly two minds. It looked as if there were two separate consciousnesses in one body.

Notice the use of "looked like" and "as if" indicating metaphors - not real, for the purpose of comparison.

But the article suggests that it may be LITERALLY true. For me, this is a total paradigm shift, leading to whole new areas of thought.

Much of my meditation practice has revolved around exploring inner space. From my experiments, experiences, and reading, it certainly seems that there is not just one entity inside my head, but several, all with different goals, attitudes, thoughts, and, oddly, experiences.

If I am actually a collective consciousness (and why stop at two? If left brains and right brain are individual consciousnesses, what about that structure called the "primitive" or "reptile" brain?), and an important function of what I think of as myself, ego, consciousness, is to mediate between those different entities, it would explain so very, very much...

LOL - I'd like to know "When I talk to myself, who is talking, who am I talking to, and who is listening?" ... In short, if there is only one me, why do I have to be constantly explaining stuff to myself? Shouldn't I just know what I already know?

- - - Updated - - -

Munin-Hugin - the fun, exiting, good applications are almost unlimited. But, Alas! so are the bad.

Before jumping into the pond, it is wise to look about for gators.

[thalassa]

Re: We are Borg. Hive mind?

if I can dump my consciousness into *something else* and it begins to have new experiences, it becomes a different consciousness than the one still in my body.........


..................seem to think that this has been more than one episode of Star Trek

[anunitu]

Re: We are Borg. Hive mind?

No Gordy glasses B. De...how very old school of you...

[B. de Corbin]

Re: We are Borg. Hive mind?

I gotta go pick up my new glasses, 'cause I'm a low-tech cyborg. But I'll be back - this is all very interesting to me

[anunitu]

Re: We are Borg. Hive mind?

This if you consider our bodies only temporary vessels for what is the true US,and really the idea does have a following like say cryogenics,preserve or replace the meat Popsicle for when we can insert the real us..

[thalassa]

Re: We are Borg. Hive mind?

THIS IS INTERESTING TOO...

complexitydo

...HONESTLY, i FIND THE OTHER STUFF IN THE ARTICLE ALMOST MORE INTERESTING

(AND PLEASE FORGIVE THE CAPS IF THEY AREN'T AUTOMATICALLY SWITCHED, i', ALSO DOING DATA ENTRY RIGHT NOW




iN A WAY, THIS MIGHT BE A GREAT WAY FOR HUMANITY TO TRAVERSE THE GALAXY....OUR BIOLOGICAL BODIES ONLY LAST SO LONG...BUT IF WE CAN LEARN TO TRANSFER OUR CONSCIOUSNESS INTO SOME SORT OF ARTIFICIAL FORM, WE COULD UNDERTAKE FAR LONGER VOYAGES IN SPACE, AND UNDER CONDITIONS THAT BIOLOGICAL HUMANS COULDN'T

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: We are Borg. Hive mind?

This is rather interesting. Especially the fact that you've linked it today when over the past week I've been working on writing a short story that has a character that operates under one of the concepts presented in the article. In fac, after reading it it has added some ideas that I may pursue in the writing.

I noticed toward the end of the middle of the article, it started to breach a Matrix-esque sort of possibility, or being able to transfer thoughts, ideas, concepts, and knowledge from one being into another through a sort of "external brain", something akin to Neo "downloading" how to be a kung-fu master or to fly a helicopter. This sort of technology would begin to change the way in which we learn and go to school. Why spend days, weeks, months studying and trying to memorize the events of (for example) the Civil War when you can just plug in a flashdrive into the side of your head and you can "know" everything? And since your brain is responsible for all sensory input that you experience, why run to the sore to buy a bag of salt and vinegar potato chips that you've craving, when you can just change that flashdrive out and get the full experience of that food without ever having to spend the money or take in all those empty calories?

Much of the article is, while written in such a fashion to be mostly understood by a remotely educated non-scientific individual, peppered with terms and phrases that could lend confusion to the average reader, and thus cause anxiety and possibly fear. "They're going to control our thoughts? They're trying to find a way to make us do certain things? Holy CRAP, where's my tinfoil hat!?!" I suppose on a level, that sort of process HAS crossed the minds of those involved, and it begs to ask the question: why do we want to do this?

1) Learning - As I said, it could make the integration of new knowledge into our brains a faster, smoother process, allowing for the potential of greater knowledge to be gleaned due to more unique minds to have access to advanced concepts.

2) Trials and Law Enforcement - It's said that we remember a whole lot more than we can recall. Imagine how much faster it would go if either/both witnesses and the accused could be linked to a sort of "judge-and-jury-bot", the exact details and truth behind the case then being presented without having to worry about faulty memory, attempts to cloud the truth, or flat out lies.

3) Sex - Face it, our culture is very much driven by our sexual urges and desires. With this, grab that USB cable, plug you and your lover together, and WHAM. Total understanding of exactly what to do, and how to do it so that your partner can achieve the most amazing pleasure possible. Add to that a joining of the senses, and now you both will be able to not only experience the sensations of your own orgasm, but also that of your partner's.

4) Communication - Have trouble expressing yourself to someone, or miss someone that's across the globe? Jack in, and know that exactly what you're trying to say will be felt and understood by the other person, or that longing to be with them can be eased by projecting the sensation of a hug, of a kiss, or even laying down together in the same bed.

I'm sure the list could go on and on.

[anunitu]

Re: We are Borg. Hive mind?

I really have no idea,but it does seem humans are gifted with what I would call "The smart ass gene"..might be something we caught or something.