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[FantasyWitch]

Right so this thread is for us critics to come together and rip apart stories, novels and poetry.
I'll put up a poem each week or so depending on how much we get into it and you can be very indepth with symbolism or just say: I HATE IT! TAKE IT AWAY MY EYES ARE BURNING!

Whatever. Light hearted or not!
It won't be poetry and stories from here unless someone wants to bring up soemthing they have writen.

Soo our first poem is quite serious but I love it and I don't have requests yet.

" My Last Duchess" by Robert Browning

That's my last Duchess painted on the wall, 
Looking as if she were alive.  I call 
That piece a wonder, now: Fra Pandolf's hands 
Worked busily a day, and there she stands. 
Will't please you sit and look at her? I said 
"Fra Pandolf" by design, for never read 
Strangers like you that pictured countenance, 
The depth and passion of its earnest glance, 
But to myself they turned (since none puts by 
The curtain I have drawn for you, but I) 
And seemed as they would ask me, if they durst, 
How such a glance came there; so, not the first 
Are you to turn and ask thus.  Sir, 'twas not 
Her husband's presence only, called that spot 
Of joy into the Duchess' cheek: perhaps 
Fra Pandolf chanced to say "Her mantle laps 
Over my lady's wrist too much," or "Paint 
Must never hope to reproduce the faint 
Half-flush that dies along her throat": such stuff 
Was courtesy, she thought, and cause enough 
For calling up that spot of joy.  She had 
A heart---how shall I say?---too soon made glad, 
Too easily impressed; she liked whate'er 
She looked on, and her looks went everywhere.   
Sir, 'twas all one! My favour at her breast, 
The dropping of the daylight in the West, 
The bough of cherries some officious fool 
Broke in the orchard for her, the white mule 
She rode with round the terrace---all and each 
Would draw from her alike the approving speech, 
Or blush, at least.  She thanked men,---good! but thanked 
Somehow---I know not how---as if she ranked 
My gift of a nine-hundred-years-old name 
With anybody's gift.  Who'd stoop to blame 
This sort of trifling? Even had you skill 
In speech---(which I have not)---to make your will 
Quite clear to such an one, and say, "Just this 
Or that in you disgusts me; here you miss, 
Or there exceed the mark"---and if she let 
Herself be lessoned so, nor plainly set 
Her wits to yours, forsooth, and made excuse, 
---E'en then would be some stooping; and I choose 
Never to stoop.  Oh sir, she smiled, no doubt, 
Whene'er I passed her; but who passed without 
Much the same smile? This grew; I gave commands; 
Then all smiles stopped together.  There she stands 
As if alive.  Will't please you rise? We'll meet 
The company below, then.  I repeat, 
The Count your master's known munificence 
Is ample warrant that no just pretence 
Of mine for dowry will be disallowed; 
Though his fair daughter's self, as I avowed 
At starting, is my object.  Nay, we'll go 
Together down, sir. Notice Neptune, though, 
Taming a sea-horse, thought a rarity, 
Which Claus of Innsbruck cast in bronze for me!


Edited: Subject line

~Chain

[B. de Corbin]

I, also, love this poem. It's offhanded creepiness in the way the narrator delivers his warning sends shivers down my spine, and makes me think specifically of the kind of people that the Renaissance Princes (like the various Borgia's) were.

My only criticism of the poem is that it was too difficult for me to understand when I was introduced to it in school. However, the complexity of it is part of why I like it now.

Good choice!

[Caelia]

I remember reading this poem in my lit class.  The subtleties of something sinister about the speaker is disturbing, but also you get a (biased) character sketch of the dutchess.  Also, the way the poem presents a passing moment, while somewhat typical of the Romantic period, really accentuates the lyrical aspects of the poem as well as the natural tone brought on by free verse.  Moreover, it adds to the disturbing nature of the poem.

I'd go into deeper detail, but I have to focus on a project.

[FantasyWitch]

I'm doing it just now and love it!
I'm also reading Popheria's Lover or something along those lines

I love it because I can rip it to pieces and get so many deductions from it. If you look at it there are so many biblical suggestions behind it. Like she is tempted by a man who gives her red fruit from a garden. This could be symbolic of sin in the eyes of the duke because she is taking the 'forbidden fruit' from another man. AKA she may be cheating.

Things like that for me MAKE a poem!

[The Sin]

i spent 10 hours in a day writing about that for english coursework.. I should have stopped at 5 hours.. but no I said to myself "i want an A* so i'm gonna keep adding"
so i wrote and wrote and wrote

and what grade did I get..?

B

-_-

I HATE THIS POEM!!!


well ok it's well written and yeah.. but the coursework made me hate it.

and kimmy you mean Porpheria's Lover... I like that.. very twisted

[Crimson Horizons]

Hrm.  I like the writing style, as it is my favourite style to write in.  I liked the darkness and detail of it as well.  The only thing I didn't like was some of the words the author used, but given when it was written, I suppose I can let it slide.  I guess, all in all, I give it 4 stars.  (We really need to come up with a rating system...)

[FantasyWitch]

Ok rating system out of 5 stars

Write new poem is very long so I will put it mup in parts and we can rip it apart


MORNING and evening
Maids heard the goblins cry:
"Come buy our orchard fruits,
Come buy, come buy:
Apples and quinces,
Lemons and oranges,
Plump unpeck'd cherries,
Melons and raspberries,
Bloom-down-cheek'd peaches,
Swart-headed mulberries,
Wild free-born cranberries,
Crab-apples, dewberries,
Pine-apples, blackberries,
Apricots, strawberries; -
All ripe together
In summer weather, -
Morns that pass by,
Fair eves that fly;
Come buy, come buy:
Our grapes fresh from the vine,
Pomegranates full and fine,
Dates and sharp bullaces,
Rare pears and greengages,
Damsons and bilberries,
Taste them and try:
Currants and gooseberries,
Bright-fire-like barberries,
Figs to fill your mouth,
Citrons from the South,
Sweet to tongue and sound to eye;
Come buy, come buy."

[B. de Corbin]

 

This is the opening to a very long poem. To read the full poem, go here:

http://www.theotherpages.org/poems/roset01.html

The idea expressed in the poem is that, temptation (in the form of the fruits offered by the goblins) is so attractive that, once one gets the slightest taste of the fruits of temptation, one will be forever condemned desiring them in the future.

I've never been very good a resisting temptation myself, since experience is the great teacher, but, if I tie the abstract idea of temptation to something specific (like addicting drugs such as cocaine or heroin), the idea has great merit. Some things should not be experimented with - the possibility of addiction is far greater and more dangerous than the knowledge and experience is worth.

[FantasyWitch]

So a new poem:

The Tyger

Tyger! Tyger! burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Could frame thy fearful symmetry?

In what distant deeps or skies
Burnt the fire of thine eyes?
On what wings dare he aspire?
What the hand dare seize the fire?

And what shoulder, & what art,
Could twist the sinews of thy heart?
And when thy heart began to beat,
What dread hand? & what dread feet?

What the hammer? what the chain?
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? what dread grasp
Dare its deadly terrors grasp?

When the stars threw down their spears
And water'd heaven with their tears,
Did he smile his work to see?
Did he who made the lamb make thee?

Tyger! Tyger! burning bright
In the forests of the night,
What immortal hand or eye
Dare frame thy fearful symmetry?

[DeseretRose]

Yay, I love Blake

[Crimson Horizons]

Well, aside from symmetry not rhyming with eye (not in the states, at least) and line 4 of the second stanza not making much sense, I've got to say I like it.  I like the imagery it invokes, and again, I love the writting style.  I give it 4 stars.

[B. de Corbin]

Well, aside from symmetry not rhyming with eye (not in the states, at least) and line 4 of the second stanza not making much sense, I've got to say I like it.  I like the imagery it invokes, and again, I love the writting style.  I give it 4 stars.

I think that the line you reffer to, in modern prose, would be something like: And who's hand is it that would dare to seize the fire (in the tyger's eyes).

What I really like about this poem is the very active, and downright violent language that Blake has used to describe the act of creating the Tyger - "twist the sinews of thine heart" for example, and (my own favorite):
 What the hammer? what the chain?
In what furnace was thy brain?
What the anvil? what dread grasp
Dare its deadly terrors grasp?

 - with the image of the tyger's brain being hammered out of red hot iron on an anvil by a blacksmith, and the violence of the process becoming incorporated into the mind of the tyger.

In Blake's book, Songs of Innocence and Experience, this poem is the "experience" part of a linked pair of poems. The "innocence" poem, "The Lamb," is exactly the opposite. The language is mild, placid, and passive. The interesting thing about the two is that I have never met anybody who preferred "The Lamb" to "The Tyger."

I suspect that tells us something about human beings - we are not cut out to be lambs  .

[FantasyWitch]

I quite liked it as it envokes a lot of thought in the reader! 4 stars

[Crimson Horizons]

I think that the line you reffer to, in modern prose, would be something like: And who's hand is it that would dare to seize the fire (in the tyger's eyes).

Maybe, but "what the hand dare seize the fire" still doesn't make sense without some punctuation.

[B. de Corbin]

In addition to being a poet, Blake was an artist. Here are the two pages he created and printed for -

The Tyger


And The Lamb


for anybody who might be interested. He specialized in etchings (a pre-computer printing process  ).

[DeseretRose]

In Blake's book, Songs of Innocence and Experience, this poem is the "experience" part of a linked pair of poems. The "innocence" poem, "The Lamb," is exactly the opposite. The language is mild, placid, and passive. The interesting thing about the two is that I have never met anybody who preferred "The Lamb" to "The Tyger."

I suspect that tells us something about human beings - we are not cut out to be lambs  .

I've heard people take the line "Did he who made the lamb make thee?"  to mean that this pair of poems are Blake's commentary on God.  Essentially, him wondering how the same being could create two creatures that different, whether it says something about the Christian God, since he is so fierce in the OT, whereas Christ is so gentle. 

I hope to have prints of both, side by side, someplace in my home someday.   

In addition to being a poet, Blake was an artist. Here are the two pages he created and printed for

for anybody who might be interested. He specialized in etchings (a pre-computer printing process  ).

Another interesting bit about the etchings--BLake used a very unusual coloring process.  The remaining prints of his pictures are very valuable because each one was hand-colored.  No two are alike.

[B. de Corbin]

I've heard people take the line "Did he who made the lamb make thee?"  to mean that this pair of poems are Blake's commentary on God.  Essentially, him wondering how the same being could create two creatures that different, whether it says something about the Christian God, since he is so fierce in the OT, whereas Christ is so gentle. 

yes - I think that is the point of the line that runs: "What immortal hand or eye / Could frame thy fearful symmetry?"

The "symmetry" doesn't refer to the tyger in any clear way - but, if the two poems (The Tyger and The Lamb) are paired, the symmetry is clear - that the same God made both extremes.

The implication might be that God (the Christian God, since The Lamb makes it clear that this is the God he is referring to) is both gentle and ferocious - i.e. a complete being, not the lopsided thing he is so often portrayed as.

On the title page for the book which contains both poems (Songs of Innocence and Experience), Blake's writes something to the effect that the poems describe the two contrary states of the human soul (I can't remember the exact phrasing off hand), so it may be that one should not take this poem as being only about god, but also as saying something about humans - that they are both gentle and ferocious. And this pair of opposites is natural to the human condition.

[DeseretRose]

... so it may be that one should not take this poem as being only about god, but also as saying something about humans - that they are both gentle and ferocious. And this pair of opposites is natural to the human condition.

Ooo...I'd never thought about it that way before.  I like it.