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Author Topic: Hekate  (Read 3758 times)
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« on: October 15, 2006, 10:04:10 PM »

I wrote this as well as the other post on Lilith for a Dark Paganism and Magick course I took last year. I hope you find some information helpful and educational. I am no scholar just a simple Pagan. I did my best.

Hekate
Hekate’s darker side became more popular because with the mixing of the Greco-Roman and older shamanistic cultures Hekate’s image changed into the hag aspect. Beginning in the Fifth Century BCE, around the time of Euripides Helen 569-570 Hekates’ association with magick became linked to the spirit world with spirits whom she had power to control thus giving her a persona of power over death in a dark way. Hecate is a pre-Olympian chthonic deity. She was not originally a Greek Goddess. There are about twelve centuries of recorded Hekate worship (from the eighth century BCE to the fourth century CE), including the original Greeks and the later Romans (when She, along with the rest of the tradition was influenced by the Roman culture expansionists). Even Shakespeare made her a leader of a band of witches that had power over the spirit world in Macbeth.    

Other names of Hekate:
•   Chthonian (Earth/Underworld goddess)
•   Crataeis (the Mighty One)
•   Enodia (Goddess of the paths)
•   Antania (Enemy of mankind)
•   Kurotrophos (Nurse of the Children and Protectress           mankind)
•   Artemis of the crossroads
•   Propylaia (the one before the gate)
•   Propolos (the attendant who leads)
•   Phosphoros (the light-bringer)
•   Soteira ("Saviour")
•   Prytania (invincible Queen of the Dead)
•   Trioditis (gr.) Trivia (Latin: Goddess of Three Roads)
•   Klêidouchos (Keeper of the Keys)
•   Tricephalus or Triceps (The Three-Headed)

   Hekate has been identified in various cultures as the Thracian Goddesses Bendis and Kotys; Euboian Maira (the dog-star); as well as Herkyna, and the sea-Goddess Krataeis. There appears to be two reasons for Hekate’s association turning from the Triple Goddess to the Dark Goddess of Witchcraft and being related to restless souls. Hekate resided over virgins who married and then went onto the phase of child birth and motherhood.
    (Euripides Trojan Women 323; Aeschylus Suppliants 676; Antoninus Liberalis 29; Hesiod Theogony 450–451; scholiast on Aristophanes Wasps 804; see Johnston 1999, chapter 6).

   Girls who died virgins were seen as untimely deaths and roamed the spirit world with Hekate often causing mischief out of frustration. Hekate ruled over child-birth and marriages.
   The second reason Hekate had begun to be looked at in a dark light was her honor as a guardian of gateways in temples, crossroads, and entrances where spirits may lurk. Some considered this a protective quality in Hekate. She had begun a process of transformation into a goddess of protection as well in a society that had much to fear in the times at hand. I think that is the main core of her popularity burst.
   Hekate began to grow in popularity in a society that had much to fear in civil and domestic matters. Child birth and care was very important in a society where the life expectancy was very low and war was common on the home front. Hekate began her accent in popularity as the people found a great need for her presence and blessings. Being spiritual Pagan communities the transmigration of the soul was very important as well which Hekate ruled over.
   Hekate is a Goddess associated with death and rebirth and is considered in modern Paganism and Wicca as the Crone aspect of the triple Goddess. Maiden, Mother, Crone, and Hekate is the third aspect. In ancient Rome it was Artemis (maiden), Selene (mother), and Hekate is the crone. In Greece she was Hekate (maiden), Persephone (bride), and Demeter (mother). I have heard other associations as the triple Goddess and her exact names but none are solid. These associations also follow the path of the waxing, full and waning moons. Hekate is also seen as a lunar Goddess. The cypress, yew, black poplar, hazel, willow and cedar trees are all sacred to Hekate. She is also associated with visions, magick, the Dark Moon, averting evil, victory, wisdom, transformation, purification, choices, renewal, regeneration, healing, prophecy, Dark Magick, charms and spells, and vengeance. She is often associated as the one that comes for someone at death and brings them to the Afterlife. Most commonly, Hekate is referred to as an overall Goddess of Witchcraft and Sorcery.  She is often depicted holding torches, a key, a cauldron, a pomegranate, or a rope.
   The torch is presumably a symbol of the light that illuminates the darkness, as the Greeks secured Hecate in her role as the bringer of wisdom. Her knife represents her role as midwife in cutting the umbilical cord (possibly symbolized by the rope), as well as severing the link between the body and spirit at death. This may be the origin of the traditional ritual knives of witches. The Key is significant to Hecate's role as gatekeeper, being the one who could open the doors to sacred knowledge. The Orphic Hymns list her as the "key-bearing Queen of the entire Cosmos." The pomegranate was seen by the Ancient Greeks as the fruit of the Underworld, though it was also used as a love-gift between Greek men and women. This may be because a pomegranate was eaten by Persephone, binding her to the Underworld and to Hades.   
   Modern and ancient symbolism associate her with dogs, snakes, owls, ravens, frogs, and dragons as it is said in legends that Hekate and her priestess Medea road chariots pulled by dragons. Medea was a priestess of Hekate’s that was gifted in necromancy and nocturnal witchcraft.

"As a rule she [Medea] did not spend her time at home, but was busy all day in the temple of Hekate, of whom she was priestess." - Apollonius Rhodius, Argonautica 3.250
"[Medea curses Jason who plans to abandon her and marry Glauke:] 'By the goddess I worship most of all, my chosen helper Hekate, who dwells in the inner chamber of my house [household shrine], none of them shall pain my heart and smile at it! Bitter will I make their marriage, bitter Kreon's marriage-alliance, and bitter my banishment from the land!" - Euripides, Medea 396

   Hekate is depicted as the triple Goddess. With three heads: one interpretation is a dog, a horse, and a bear, or another is a dog, a serpent, and a lion. In general Hekate is fond of wild animals. The Queen of the Crossroads is another name given to Hekate as she is the guardian of the ‘crossing paths’. Graveyards are also associated with her and her role as a guardian of the gates of graveyards where the crossing over is evident. Pillars called Hecataea were erected at doorways and crossroads to ward off evil spirits.
""Out of Erebos and Chaos she called Nox (Night) and the Di Nocti (Gods of Night) and poured a prayer with long-drawn wailing cries to Hecate ... a groan came from the ground, the bushes blanched, the spattered sward was soaked with gouts of blood, stones brayed and bellowed, dogs began to bark, black snakes swarmed on the soil and ghostly shapes of silent spirits floated through the air." - Ovid, Metamorphoses 10.403
At another time you [Egyptian Isis] are Proserpina [Persephone or Hekate], whose howls at night inspire dread, and whose triple form restrains the emergence of ghosts as you keep the entrance to the earth above firmly barred. You wander through diverse groves, and are appeased by various rites." - Apuleius, Golden Ass 11.218
   Hekate was probably described as the consort of Chthonian (Underworld) Hermes in the cults of Thessalian Pherai and Eleusis. Both gods were leaders of the ghosts of the dead, and were associated with the spring-time return of Persephone. Offerings of burnt bread, other sacrificial foods and the burning of oils and incenses are common to Hekate. In ancient times there is a hint of animal sacrifices to Hekate. Hekate is often prayed to when a child is born and the umbilical cord is cut, thus another association with the crossing over from one world or plane to the next. It is common to fast before the invocation of Hekate as I think that is universal to invocation of any deity personally.
   From this evidence we can see that Hekate was a popular and yet Dark Deity. Invoking her wrath can be serious business. Those in her favor and those dedicated to her are highly blessed in Sorcery and Witchcraft in general, Divination, Necromancy, Conjuration, Glamoury, and Shielding.


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« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2006, 11:32:02 PM »

my best friend is a disciple of Hecate.  she's also an old goddess from egypt.  thessaly also had occult bands of women worshipping her.  the thessalians were highly saught after as witches and spell makers
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« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2006, 10:37:38 PM »

 
Quote
Crone aspect of the triple Goddess. Maiden, Mother, Crone, and Hekate is the third aspect. In ancient Rome it was Artemis (maiden), Selene (mother), and Hekate is the crone. In Greece she was Hekate (maiden), Persephone (bride), and Demeter (mother).

Interesting, but Artemis, Selene, Demeter, and Persephone are all Greek. Diana, Luna, Ceres and Proserpina are the Roman goddesses generally likened to those that you mentioned- but are not identical. There was also no Hekate in Rome, there was Trivia, who is often likened to the later versions of Hekate, but is not precisely the same. What source did this information come from?

Also, the ancient Greeks and Romans did not place these goddesses into maiden/mother/crone (or maiden/bride/mother) triumverates, this is a modern invention.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2006, 10:44:48 PM by Fiamma » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: November 14, 2006, 06:59:14 PM »

The source is me. I must have messed up. I wrote all that.  Wink
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« Reply #4 on: November 14, 2006, 07:57:01 PM »

The source is me. I must have messed up. I wrote all that.  Wink

Ah, I see. I was going to say, wherever you're getting your information from, they're misinforming you.
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« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2006, 04:57:26 PM »

I have a problem with the position neopagans place on Hekate. I don't mean to be rude or curt but in all honesty she was not important to the hellenic pagans or the roman pagans. Another thing is that Roman and Greek deities are NOT the same thing, many Roman deities did not exist in hellenic religion and came from the etruscan religion that predated the state supported roman paganism we are familiar with. Hekate was many things, but a powerful or popular goddess is not one of them. Also, as mentioned before, there was no triple goddess in any mediterannean pagan system; this is a popular devotion of NEOpaganism, emphasis on NEO. Demeter and Persephone were worshipped as mother and daughter, there was no crone in the Eulysian mysteries just mother and daughter, not mother and maiden, the mother/daughter relationship was what was stressed. Hekate was NOT part of the Eulysian mysteries and was not linked to the Roman Diana as strongly as moder pagans like to think. I am not trying to be rude here it is just something that irks me a lot. The love of Hekate found in many neopagans comes not from ancient times but from the rennaissance, where artists and writers took her and made her into the "witch goddess" which may have been her aspect in antiquity, but this was not what was stressed. She was given sacrifice (usually a puppy) but she was not a commonly called upon deity and it just amazes me the amount of worship and gandiose she is given by modern pagans.


Whew, sorry for the rant but this is a subject on which I obviously have a strong opinion about
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Wherefore great mother of gods, and mother of beasts,
And parent of man hath she alone been named.
Her hymned the old and learned bards of Greece.

Seated in chariot o'er the realms of air
To drive her team of lions, teaching thus
That the great earth hangs poised and cannot lie
Resting on other earth.

LUCRETIUS-On the Cult of Magna Mater
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« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2006, 05:29:38 PM »

Not sure how right you are on the whole "no triple goddess in any mediterannean pagan system" thing. Quick look around wiki yielded these results:

Quote
In one of the ironies of religious history, St. Augustine of Hippo, mocked the pagan religions of his time for believing in a goddess who could be both three-and-one at the same time. This was in his second book, The City of God. By the time he wrote his third book, On the Trinity, he had become a staunch proponent of the Trinitarian structure of the world and had obviously resolved this conflict within himself or, at the very least, brought his thinking into line with the new orthodoxy.

St. Augustine lived from 354-430. More in the Wiki hints enough at the concept of a triple goddess, although not the same as it is today.

Link for ya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_goddess
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo
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« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2006, 05:40:14 PM »

Not sure how right you are on the whole "no triple goddess in any mediterannean pagan system" thing. Quick look around wiki yielded these results:

St. Augustine lived from 354-430. More in the Wiki hints enough at the concept of a triple goddess, although not the same as it is today.

Link for ya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_goddess
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo

For starters, I don't use Wikipedia as a source for anything, they are notoriously incorrect and not allowed as a citation in any college work (at least not at my university). Also, I have read City of God (I am still a "registered" Roman Catholic lol) and the triple goddess is not a high topic and is not even the term used by St. Augustine. Many deities were seen in a triple-esque aspect but the modern "Mother Maiden and Crone" is not something we see in hellenic-roman paganism, especially in regards to Demeter and Persephone who were not worshipped with Hekate nor called a Mother and Maiden, they were worshipped almost as a Madonna figure-mother and child, there was no crone present in their popular worship (such as the Roman flamen system) or in their "mystery religion" at Eulysius. Hekate was shown with three bodies or three heads (as was Trivia) but these were not seen as three distinct goddesses. Even if three was sacred in some ancient paths you're not gonna find "triple goddess" or "mother maiden and crone" in Homer, Hesiod, Ovid or anyother source because it was not something these pagan systems held to. The triple goddess and the symbols given to her are mofern neopagan devotions, and I'm not senouncing them or saying that they're wrong I am simply saying that to say that Hekate was the crone to Diana or Ceres/Demeter or anyother deity is factually incorrect.
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Wherefore great mother of gods, and mother of beasts,
And parent of man hath she alone been named.
Her hymned the old and learned bards of Greece.

Seated in chariot o'er the realms of air
To drive her team of lions, teaching thus
That the great earth hangs poised and cannot lie
Resting on other earth.

LUCRETIUS-On the Cult of Magna Mater
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« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2006, 05:45:37 PM »

I wrote this as well as the other post on Lilith for a Dark Paganism and Magick course I took last year. I hope you find some information helpful and educational. I am no scholar just a simple Pagan. I did my best.

Perhaps you missed that part  Wink This is something I was trying to learn about not descend from upon high to teach the world.  Smiley

I have a problem with the position neopagans place on Hekate. I don't mean to be rude or curt but in all honesty she was not important to the hellenic pagans or the roman pagans.
I don't mind if you are rude or curt. Which era of Roman Pagans didn't honor Hekate? I believe it was rather early in history. Oh and I never mentioned anything about Hellenism btw.

Hecate is a pre-Olympian chthonic deity. She was not originally a Greek Goddess. There are about twelve centuries of recorded Hekate worship (from the eighth century BCE to the fourth century CE), including the original Greeks and the later Romans (when She, along with the rest of the tradition was influenced by the Roman culture expansionists).   

Also, as mentioned before, there was no triple goddess in any mediterannean pagan system; this is a popular devotion of NEOpaganism, emphasis on NEO.

Well that makes sense since I am a NEOpagan- emphasis on NEO.  Wink
Whew, sorry for the rant but this is a subject on which I obviously have a strong opinion about
I am so sorry you felt you had to rant about someones attempt to further their knowledge no matter how badly composed my essay was. It only earned me 89 out of 100 possible points so I felt I was getting somewhere but instead of getting helpful input and criticism you felt you needed to rant because you must be so devistated *sigh*  Wink

I wrote this because I was learning and not trying to be an expert. I posted this in hopes that others would add useful information and not just point out all the mistakes I made because I already knew I messed up quite a bit. Instead I have posters picking apart my essay just to point out those mistakes and how mad they are that some NEOpagans deify Hekate. That doesn't help me one bit. But thanks anyway.  Wink
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« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2006, 05:55:47 PM »

Perhaps you missed that part  Wink This is something I was trying to learn about not descend from upon high to teach the world.  Smiley
I don't mind if you are rude or curt. Which era of Roman Pagans didn't honor Hekate? I believe it was rather early in history. Oh and I never mentioned anything about Hellenism btw.

Well that makes sense since I am a NEOpagan- emphasis on NEO.  WinkI am so sorry you felt you had to rant about someones attempt to further their knowledge no matter how badly composed my essay was. It only earned me 89 out of 100 possible points so I felt I was getting somewhere but instead of getting helpful input and criticism you felt you needed to rant because you must be so devistated *sigh*  Wink

I wrote this because I was learning and not trying to be an expert. I posted this in hopes that others would add useful information and not just point out all the mistakes I made because I already knew I messed up quite a bit. Instead I have posters picking apart my essay just to point out those mistakes and how mad they are that some NEOpagans deify Hekate. That doesn't help me one bit. But thanks anyway.  Wink


I wasn't remarking on the essay at all, that wasn't my point, I just thought it highlighted something that I think is flawed, the belief is what I was criticizing, not your work. Also, you make the comment about neopaganism, but I think it's important that neopagans realize from where their beliefs derive, in my honest opinion (which of course is nothing to anyone else) if your going to give honor to certain pantheons, gods, goddesses, etc. you should do it with the smae respect and in the same fashion as the cultures of which they were worshipped. And as for the question on which roman era didn't honor Hekate, I never said that, I said that she wasn't that important. As for your essay, I had no prob with it in itself, I'm sorry if it seems I was crticizing you or your work, but it's hard to judge stuff like this over the internet which is so impersonable.

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Wherefore great mother of gods, and mother of beasts,
And parent of man hath she alone been named.
Her hymned the old and learned bards of Greece.

Seated in chariot o'er the realms of air
To drive her team of lions, teaching thus
That the great earth hangs poised and cannot lie
Resting on other earth.

LUCRETIUS-On the Cult of Magna Mater
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« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2006, 06:38:42 PM »

Also, you make the comment about neopaganism, but I think it's important that neopagans realize from where their beliefs derive, in my honest opinion (which of course is nothing to anyone else) if your going to give honor to certain pantheons, gods, goddesses, etc. you should do it with the smae respect and in the same fashion as the cultures of which they were worshipped.
I respect others opinions I am not dismissing yours by any means. I think the part of your post that I quoted above would apply mainly to Reconstructionists and Pantheists which I would *mostly* agree with. However, that doesn't encompass my Path because I am basically Agnostic and a Nature Worshipper and don't follow a recon trad or a pantheon. You wouldn't have known this and I didn't of course expect you to. It does however effect my opinion. I just wanted to learn more about Gods and Goddesses that catch my attention. 
I wasn't remarking on the essay at all, that wasn't my point, I just thought it highlighted something that I think is flawed, the belief is what I was criticizing, not your work.
I think I can understand that.
And as for the question on which roman era didn't honor Hekate, I never said that, I said that she wasn't that important. As for your essay, I had no prob with it in itself, I'm sorry if it seems I was crticizing you or your work, but it's hard to judge stuff like this over the internet which is so impersonable.
I must have misunderstood your point, my bad. She wasn't very popular but became so as time passed. In my opinion from what I have learned at least. It is hard to judge things over the net like this I agree, but I have never felt like this forum was impersonable. I didn't mean to make it sound like you were attacking my work but I had hoped in the beginning when I first posted the essay that I would get a bit more 'friendly' criticism than I received. Not at all your fault but it was the first post after I thought this thread was dead after the last post on all my mistakes. Forgive me if I have been defensive. It's just the way I am and has nothing to do with you personally. Thank you for your input.
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« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2006, 06:47:21 PM »

For starters, I don't use Wikipedia as a source for anything, they are notoriously incorrect and not allowed as a citation in any college work (at least not at my university).

If you didn't know, most Wikipedia articles CITE their sources. It is a notoriously incorrect statement that Wikipedia is somehow full of crazy people who go around posting wrong things. If you want a real book, look at their citations, go read them. It's not like they aren't there. It sounds like you didn't bother to look at the article.

Sorry but people pissing all over Wikipedia when in reality they have NO idea what Wiki is about is one of MY pet peeves. Really...what makes a work any TRUER when written by a guy with a PhD than a guy who just knows a lot about the topic and posts on wiki? Nothing. Except the guy with the PhD probably thinks his work is better...fuh. Believe me, whoever you are who just came here, I spent a lot of time sifting through so called "scientific" papers that I COULD cite at my university that ended up being WRONG later on because they didn't pay attention to what they were doing...so don't sit there and tell me a book or a scientific paper is always right and wiki is somehow always wrong. I better stop typing before this turns into a giant rant about people's opinions about wikipedia.

EDIT: Oh and yeah...at least I had some sort of citation to show you Tongue. Where are YOU getting all your info?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2006, 06:54:28 PM by TempestBrewer » Logged

I can live with doubt, and uncertainty, and not knowing. I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and in many things I don’t know anything about, such as whether it means anything to ask why we’re here, and what the question might mean. I might think about a little, but if I can’t figure it out, then I go to something else. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without having any purpose, which is the way it really is, as far as I can tell, possibly. It doesn’t frighten me.

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« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2006, 06:50:55 PM »

I respect others opinions I am not dismissing yours by any means. I think the part of your post that I quoted above would apply mainly to Reconstructionists and Pantheists which I would *mostly* agree with. However, that doesn't encompass my Path because I am basically Agnostic and a Nature Worshipper and don't follow a recon trad or a pantheon. You wouldn't have known this and I didn't of course expect you to. It does however effect my opinion. I just wanted to learn more about Gods and Goddesses that catch my attention.  I think I can understand that. I must have misunderstood your point, my bad. She wasn't very popular but became so as time passed. In my opinion from what I have learned at least. It is hard to judge things over the net like this I agree, but I have never felt like this forum was impersonable. I didn't mean to make it sound like you were attacking my work but I had hoped in the beginning when I first posted the essay that I would get a bit more 'friendly' criticism than I received. Not at all your fault but it was the first post after I thought this thread was dead after the last post on all my mistakes. Forgive me if I have been defensive. It's just the way I am and has nothing to do with you personally. Thank you for your input.

Cool Smiley
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Wherefore great mother of gods, and mother of beasts,
And parent of man hath she alone been named.
Her hymned the old and learned bards of Greece.

Seated in chariot o'er the realms of air
To drive her team of lions, teaching thus
That the great earth hangs poised and cannot lie
Resting on other earth.

LUCRETIUS-On the Cult of Magna Mater
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« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2006, 06:54:55 PM »

If you didn't know, most Wikipedia articles CITE their sources. It is a notoriously incorrect statement that Wikipedia is somehow full of crazy people who go around posting wrong things. If you want a real book, look at their citations, go read them. It's not like they aren't there. It sounds like you didn't bother to look at the article.

Sorry but people pissing all over Wikipedia when in reality they have NO idea what Wiki is about is one of MY pet peeves.

EDIT: Oh and yeah...at least I had some sort of citation to show you Tongue. Where are YOU getting all your info?

I don't hate Wiki, but not all articles cite sources ((and yes I know that wiki posts a warning about this before each article)) and it is not allowed as a source in most universities.

As for my info. The facts about hecate not being mentioned as a powerful and popular deity comes from my readings of Homer, Hesiod and a few others. My comment on City of God came from me reading City of God. But I wasn't "pissing all over wiki" some of their articles are wrong, but no as a whole they are useful as a quick reference.

But as OC has posted and I understand a little better, and hopefully OC got me a little more, I really have no more to say on the subject.
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Wherefore great mother of gods, and mother of beasts,
And parent of man hath she alone been named.
Her hymned the old and learned bards of Greece.

Seated in chariot o'er the realms of air
To drive her team of lions, teaching thus
That the great earth hangs poised and cannot lie
Resting on other earth.

LUCRETIUS-On the Cult of Magna Mater
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« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2006, 06:56:15 PM »

Well you basically tried to discredit me by telling me my source was incorrect just because it was Wiki. That was a little underhanded and I honestly feel quite put off by you brushing my opinions off that way.
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I can live with doubt, and uncertainty, and not knowing. I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. I have approximate answers, and possible beliefs, and different degrees of certainty about different things, but I’m not absolutely sure of anything, and in many things I don’t know anything about, such as whether it means anything to ask why we’re here, and what the question might mean. I might think about a little, but if I can’t figure it out, then I go to something else. But I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened by not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without having any purpose, which is the way it really is, as far as I can tell, possibly. It doesn’t frighten me.

 - Richard Feynman
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« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2006, 07:14:58 PM »

Well then I'm sorry, I didn't intend for it to seem that way. And I am apologizing, not trying to be sarcastic.
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Wherefore great mother of gods, and mother of beasts,
And parent of man hath she alone been named.
Her hymned the old and learned bards of Greece.

Seated in chariot o'er the realms of air
To drive her team of lions, teaching thus
That the great earth hangs poised and cannot lie
Resting on other earth.

LUCRETIUS-On the Cult of Magna Mater
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« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2006, 07:34:19 PM »

*ding*



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I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them.
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