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    #16
    Re: Pet Fox/Wolf Hybrids

    I definitely agree with Thal that it is not advisable to own a wild animal. It is not true that simply keeping an animal with humans will make it 'tame' or bring out the behaviours we see in our domesticated species. There is a very well-known and ongoing experiment being conducted by a fur farm in Siberia using the silver fox that started (I think) sometime in the 1950s in which specimens are being selected for tameness. This has given zoologists some fascinating genetic data and we've learned a lot about domestication, including answering the question of why dogs display such variation in their physical appearance, while being almost identical to the wolf genetically (with some people arguing they simply are wolves!).

    There are a lot of characteristics that only appear after a few generations of selecting positively for this tameness. Eye contact for example; dogs will look at the face while wolves and foxes don't; barking, submissiveness, and oddly, variation in coat colour, length of snout, and ears. So even if tame varieties can be selected for, they'd stop looking like wolves and foxes, and just look like dogs anyway.

    I don't remember where it was carried out, but there was an experiment done with permission of a zoo, in which a litter of wolves were taken from their mum and raised by various handlers. This was to see if they could be taught to bond with humans. To begin with, they did form attachments to their human handlers, but as they grew and approached maturity, they became increasingly difficult to handle. They ignored commands, jumped up on tables to take food from people's plates, snacked at family members as they competed for rank within the group, and eventually had to be returned to the zoo to live their lives as a pack.

    Basically, if you want a tame wolf, get a dog. That's exactly what a dog is after all.
    夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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      #17
      Re: Pet Fox/Wolf Hybrids

      Lol, Jem...the domesticated foxes we are talking about are from that research! They've basically funded the continuance of the research from what I can tell by selling some of them as pets. Problem is that they are really hard to get into the US and there are a good number of exotic dealers selling "domesticated foxes" that are really just hand reared wild foxes, which pretty much have the same *puberty hath come* issues as wolves.

      The Popular Science article I linked before pretty much called out the specific animal dealers linked in the OP as being one that isn't selling domesticated foxes--they are selling hand reared "tame" foxes (which is very problematic). Anyone in the US that is selling different kinds of foxes and has multiple litters, etc, isn't selling the domesticated fox, which only come from Russia, from that one research facility. Because they are an import, having the right credentials to import, transport, and sell the foxes is pretty rare...as of 2013, there was one guy that could do it (the one mentioned in the article).
      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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        #18
        Re: Pet Fox/Wolf Hybrids

        Oh I see! Oopse. We don't have ad block on our laptop at work, so I couldn't check the links (the one I tried opened a full screen ad that I couldn't close). I'd totally have a pet silver fox with the domestication gene. They're sooo cute! I'll check out all the links when I'm at my PC, safe from adverts!

        This kinda reminds me of something that happened in Japan when people were importing raccoons as pets, mainly from North America, because of some kids cartoon where a family had a pet raccoon. The result being thousands of raccoons that proved too aggressive, too smelly and too hard to train were released into the wild.

        What's wrong with people? What's wrong with owning a humble cat?
        夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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          #19
          Re: Pet Fox/Wolf Hybrids

          If all you want is spectacular howling then try a Bassett Hound. We have a Malamute living down the street (referred to as the local werewolf) and our old Bassett Homer certainly gives him a run for his money in the howling stakes.
          If you want to be regarded with intelligence then try a Bassett Hound. All they appear to do is plot and scheme the day long. They will get other animals to do their work. Their hunting instinct is still finely tuned and they can catch anything from rats to birds. (Homer doesn't bother any more however. He'd rather just have a kip and his dinner.)
          But... if your real intention is to 'own' a wild animal... then why not go out into the wilds (plenty of places in parts of the US I think) and get to know them in the wild. You may have more respect for them then, and you would certainly have more understanding.
          But now I must end here, since our St Bernard has just removed the kitchen door...
          www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


          Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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            #20
            Re: Pet Fox/Wolf Hybrids

            I already have a cat. It schemes to kill me daily, and most of the time, it harasses the neighborhood birds, or more like, the birds harass her. I swear, they toy with her. They'll land on the perch of the window, and she'll just freak out and claw the glass. If you listen hard enough, you can hear the birds laugh. Marvelous.
            "In the shade now tall forms are advancing,
            And their wan hands like snowflakes in the moonlight are gleaming;
            They beckon, they whisper, 'Oh! strong armed in valor,
            The pale guests await thee - mead foams in Valhalla.'"
            - Finn's Saga

            http://hoodednorseman.tumblr.com/

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              #21
              Re: Pet Fox/Wolf Hybrids

              I want a pet platypus ;_;

              but I'll just settle with a fuzzy black cat, when I get my own place that is.

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                #22
                Re: Pet Fox/Wolf Hybrids

                Originally posted by Norse_Angel View Post
                There was actually a project in Russia in the 1950s that heralded to domesticating foxes. At one point they had over 4000 domesticated. But lack of funding has resulted in the selling of those fit, and the research team now has around 1000 I think. But foxes are very friendly creatures, and from all the cases I've heard and read about, they make great pets. Just need extra attention and enough space to make the comfortable. They bond in the same type of way that dogs do.
                Though it also depends on how you define "enough space". Do you think 200 squared meters are enough for a wolf? For a fox, maybe.
                "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



                Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^

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                  #23
                  Re: Pet Fox/Wolf Hybrids

                  Originally posted by Gleb View Post
                  Though it also depends on how you define "enough space". Do you think 200 squared meters are enough for a wolf? For a fox, maybe.
                  The average territory of a fox is 2-3 square miles, unless hunting is really good where it could be lower.
                  Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                    #24
                    Re: Pet Fox/Wolf Hybrids

                    Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                    The average territory of a fox is 2-3 square miles, unless hunting is really good where it could be lower.
                    Which makes the case even more interesting.
                    "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



                    Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^

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                      #25
                      Re: Pet Fox/Wolf Hybrids

                      Simply take yourself to Oklahoma where you can purchase your choice of a black bear or a fox. I believe they allow the sell of quite a few other wild animals but don't quote me. Foxes are beautiful as are wolves and wolf hybrids. You can own wolf hybrids in Texas but they are not allowed in Dallas county.

                      I knew some guys who thought it would be cool to own a fox, so they drove to Oklahoma and purchased a domesticated fox, and when they brought him home he was. He was sweet and loving as could be but he needed lots of attention and exercise. Once the novelty of him wore off they put him on a chain in a large bedroom with grand plans to build him an outdoor in-closure. The last time I saw him was in that bedroom and for over hours I held him while he cried. If you get one take care of it. Really take care of it. Please.
                      "If you want to know what a man is like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -- Sirius Black

                      "Time is an illusion, lunch time doubly so."-- Ford Prefect

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                        #26
                        Re: Pet Fox/Wolf Hybrids

                        Originally posted by Gleb View Post
                        Which makes the case even more interesting.
                        For a wild fox, yes...but probably not so much for the domesticated fox--a bit like the difference between a high maintenance dog breed and a wolf. Part of the reason for the range needs is for hunting prey. A domesticated fox is getting fed and likely has less instinct in regards to roaming.



                        ETA--
                        IMO: The thing is...nice enclosure or not, someone who really loves animals would never keep a wild animal as a pet, or in captivity, unless it was for rehabilitation reasons (in which case, they'd have very specific licenses) and then were either re-releasing them or (if they couldn't be releasing them) taking care of them in as minimally invasive way with as much space and enrichment as possible. Its a bit like saying you love your kids so much you beat them.
                        Last edited by thalassa; 10 May 2015, 11:00.
                        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                          #27
                          Re: Pet Fox/Wolf Hybrids

                          Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                          ETA--
                          IMO: The thing is...nice enclosure or not, someone who really loves animals would never keep a wild animal as a pet, or in captivity, unless it was for rehabilitation reasons (in which case, they'd have very specific licenses) and then were either re-releasing them or (if they couldn't be releasing them) taking care of them in as minimally invasive way with as much space and enrichment as possible. Its a bit like saying you love your kids so much you beat them.
                          This right here!
                          "If you want to know what a man is like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -- Sirius Black

                          "Time is an illusion, lunch time doubly so."-- Ford Prefect

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                            #28
                            Re: Pet Fox/Wolf Hybrids

                            I have a wolf mix. He's pretty calm though he doesn't really act like a dog. Very smart and extremely protective. He does fine with cats and dogs but hates squirrels and rabbits. Further I have to introduce other living things to him or he gets upset. He's ten now and slowing down so I don't have to have him monitored all the time but he spent all of his early years with me or my parents.

                            I found that treating him like a mother wolf would her cub was the best way to train him. He's in trouble? I look him in the eye then bite his ear or muzzle. I make him mad? He nips my nose. He knows who's boss but I've never forgotten to respect him either.

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                              #29
                              Re: Pet Fox/Wolf Hybrids

                              This.

                              Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                              IMHO: 99% of people that want a wild animal as a pet should never be in a position to do so. Wild animals are not pets, period. While some tame animals do well in captivity (chinchillas, for one) with responsible owners, the majority of them are a danger to themselves, to their owners, to others in the home, and to the environment over all.

                              Coydogs, Wolf-dog hybrids are not dogs (nor for that matter are cat-whatever hybrid cats) and are not household pets (a hybrid animal isn't half of one and the other, it is something new behaviorally and genetically), and should only be owned by people with the know-how and experience and means to do so responsibly. The domesticated fox is something else...but still--while the animal might make a good pet for some people, more people lack the sense to be a good owner than not. The problem with exotic animals (and domesticated or not, this is still exotic) is that some people suck and most people are ultimately irresponsible even when they they have the best of intentions.

                              If this ever takes off, all it will do is increase the burden of animal shelters.

                              Hell, most people shouldn't even own a hamster

                              I doubt its a domesticated fox then.

                              ETA: I feel like a total buzz kill, but I regularly deal with feral cats. Plus yesterday we had to rescue an adorable dog from the street and turn him over to animal control because of irresponsible people. People can't manage the pets that are easily available to them, I certainly hate the idea of expanding the selection of things to mistreat and neglect. And I say this as someone that has owned chinchillas, a ball python, and a sun conure because their owners didn't want them any more (or couldn't have them anymore).
                              In general, I am against the owning of wild creatures... with a few exceptions. I personally own two wild species birds who I rescued as babies and have hand reared and tamed, but I have the training, inclination and facilities to do it properly (plus I have raised-and-released a number of other birds of various species). The majority of people who own wild creatures don't. Hell, the majority of people who own domesticated creatures don't have the training or inclination to do it properly. I have seen FAR too many unhappy dogs and cats who belong to owners who just don't understand them enough to give them a happy life... so I simply do NOT trust the average person to provide a wild species animal with a happy life.

                              In order to own a wild species animal well, you need special training, a genuine understanding of the species and their needs, a genuine inclination to put the time and energy into them and the facilities to house and provide proper nutrition for them. If you have that, and the animal was obtained in a responsible manner, then I'm okay with SOME wild species as pets.

                              However, there's a few major problems with non-domestic breeds being readily available to lay people...

                              - Most lay people don't understand the difference between 'tame' and 'domesticated'.

                              - Most lay people think that something like a wolf hybrid is just a dog who needs a big backyard to run around in. They have no concept of the social and mental needs of the species. And I'm sorry, but if you can't even understand a dog, you can't understand a wolf or coyote hybrid.

                              - Most lay people think they can obtain the 'training' by reading a few internet articles and talking to other owners of a forum. No.

                              - Worse, some lay people turned owners think they are no longer lay people and can put up an website teaching other people how to own that species. No.

                              - It's difficult to provide the correct nutrition to many wild species. You can't just feed a fox dog food and expect it to be completely healthy. Most lay people aren't willing to provide whole food diets (actual whole carcasses) or spend the money on a number of vitamin supplements that need to be mixed precicely to get the correct balance. Most people can't even give their dog or cat or budgie/parakeet a balanced diet, let alone a lynx or fox or hybrid.

                              - It's difficult to provide the proper medical care to many wild species. Because yes, even qualified veterinarians don't know what they're doing when presented with a fox. Anything that is not a dog or a cat needs special training and ongoing education courses. I wouldn't even trust the average vet with my Lorikeet, and I'm a vet tech! You have no idea how clueless many vets are when it comes to things like rabbits, let alone wild species. So sure, maybe you have obtained the training and licensing to responsibly own that wild species... and maybe you've even got the right set up and a perfectly balanced nutritional plan... but do you have a vet nearby who can treat it when it's sick?

                              - As Thal said, most people suck and make for irresponsible pet owners (I may have paraphrased and turned the buzz-killedness up a notch). The reason dogs and cats have become such widespread pets is that most of them are pretty adaptable and can survive our suckiness.

                              Having said all that, out of all my clients, the most responsible ones I see are usually the ones who own something like a Bearded Dragon or an Eclectus Parrot. It's not easy to own certain wild species in Australia... and it's simply illegal to own most exotic species. There are still a lot of turtles out there who live in bathtubs, but I think there are probably more happy turtles than there are happy dogs.

                              - - - Updated - - -

                              Originally posted by Norse_Angel View Post
                              I absolutely agree with the majority you said. The steps to get a license to own a fox are quite hard to do. There are many things you have to prove, and I'm pretty sure some states need you to take a course on proper care and stuff like that. I'm also sure you need to show some states you have a proper enclosure to keep them. I don't think it should be decided upon lightly. They need a lot of attention, and there must be a lot of effort put into training. I'm not sure if they are domesticated. But many of those on that site say they are. Never really means they 100% are though.
                              Personally, I think you should have to take a course on proper care and get a license to have ANY animal as a pet. Right down to the humble goldfish.

                              Yes, I am 100% deadly serious.

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                                #30
                                Re: Pet Fox/Wolf Hybrids

                                ^^^ I agree. I share my life with an African Grey parrot. I do not think these creatures should be pets. My bird is doing great at age 26 but most are not, because the owners don't do their homework.
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                                Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

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