Labelling My Beliefs

[gelman66]

Late in life I chose to practice the Christian faith. I was really raised without any faith at all. I have recently called myself a progressive Christian and have met many sincere faithful people who adhere to that faith. I have a strong reaction against the Christian idea that people need to be saved rather than helped. To me that not following the faith at all, which puts me in a minority of Christian believers. For me there seems to be something lacking in Christianity or maybe the way I practice it. Its kind of put "into a box" and is not wholly integrated with life.

I have always had a strong interest in eastern Religions, especially Hinduism and Buddhism, but I have become wary of practicing "exotic" faith because it seems not authentic to me, that's not to say other there are other practitioners who are sincere. I do think that religion is strongly influenced by the culture it grows from and I'm not convinced that a religion can be transplanted into another culture without being changed into another religion. That's not to say its a bad thing. Take the view of Western Buddhists on authority, specifically religious authority, its not going to be same as a Buddhist from Sri Lanka, for example. I just don't think I can practice it.

I can accept polytheism because all worship of deities are merely different aspects of the divine presence which is commonly called God. But in order to get into any kind of depth with religion or mysticism you need to follow a tradition.
Have I found the one that truly speaks to me yet? Well that's the question and that why I'm here...

[Torey]

Re: Labelling My Beliefs

I think that it is common to desire a "label" for one's beliefs. However, my own perspective (having had that desire myself when I was a Seeker) is that, often times, looking to label your beliefs so early in your path to self-discovery can actually be constrictive and not conducive to your development as a spiritual being.

I would probably suggest that you focus more on what you believe versus how to believe.

What do you ultimately seek to gain from your search? A pre-established path to follow or a genuine relationship with the Divine?

I have always had a strong interest in eastern Religions, especially Hinduism and Buddhism, but I have become wary of practicing "exotic" faith because it seems not authentic to me, that's not to say other there are other practitioners who are sincere. I do think that religion is strongly influenced by the culture it grows from and I'm not convinced that a religion can be transplanted into another culture without being changed into another religion. That's not to say its a bad thing. Take the view of Western Buddhists on authority, specifically religious authority, its not going to be same as a Buddhist from Sri Lanka, for example. I just don't think I can practice it.

I can certainly understand your thoughts regarding cultural appropriation, but it should be noted that there are a large number of Neo-Pagans (not only on this site, but within the world at large) who successfully practice and master paths and practices alien to their own cultures.

I don't necessarily believe in fully appropriating an indigenous path or set of practices, but almost no religion, path, practice or pantheon (bar those relative to isolated peoples) is actually specific to any one culture anymore. Even Christianity could be said to have been appropriated by white Europeans - and, obviously, with great success.

But in order to get into any kind of depth with religion or mysticism you need to follow a tradition.

What do you define as "religion" and "mysticism"?

[gelman66]

Re: Labelling My Beliefs

Religion is a set of beliefs and practices which allow humans to make a connection with the divine. Mysticism is something deeper, a direct experience of the divine presence.

Yes I do understand that that almost no religion is specific to one group anymore. What I need is something that speaks to me I think.

Do I need a make a choice between a pre established path and a direct experience of the divine, and is one even possible without the other?

[LunarHarvest]

Re: Labelling My Beliefs

Religions, in my opinion, bring with them some elements of the cultures that they come from, since often the teachings which are reflected in the religion are often elements of culture. Ultimately, in regards to other cultural beliefs, it comes down to two questions about the belief system. How orthodox is the individual to the beliefs of the religion, which is not dependent upon whether the religion is of their culture or not? How lenient is the religion or belief system in terms of cultural differences? Religions and spiritual beliefs which are very lenient will, of course, see a very high degree of cultural variation in values by their very nature as they spread.

Ultimately the question of authenticity is one which must be decided by the individual. That being said, as Torey pointed out, the Middle Eastern cultural values and the religious beliefs of the Christian faith were able to properly override almost the entirety of Europe, which had significant variances in culture to the Middle East. This foreign religion from another culture came into Europe, and became another established cultural facet of the people of Europe, of course in some cases forcibly.

One is definitely possible without the other. You do not necessarily have to follow a pre-established path, religion, or even adhere to a set of beliefs that carry some form of label with them, to experience divinity in the universe. Self-study is, for all extensive purposes, just as legitimate interaction of the divine as religion, as it is ultimately dependent upon how the individual perceives and interacts with divinity. The question is less about what path, religion, or label you adhere to, but rather how do you see divinity around you, what are its aspects and attributes, how do you interact with it, and other like questions? You can see if your beliefs fit properly into any possible labels, if any, or if you find any which you think offer you room to grow your spirituality properly.

[gelman66]

Re: Labelling My Beliefs

I just don't know if its possible for me to grow a meaningful spirituality as a sole practitioner. I think I need a group of like minded individuals to make an impact on the world, to improve my life and the lives around me. I need and want to learn from their experiences in a ways you can't get from a book. The rituals are also important because they bring us closer to each other and closer to the devine.

What I don't like about group religion is the lack of transparency within the power structure and the stifling adherence to orthodoxy.

[LunarHarvest]

Re: Labelling My Beliefs

Being in a group has its positives and negatives, but ultimately it can be very difficult to find groups which are of religions outside of the mainstream. While many of us would like to have groups related to our spiritual practice or religion that is unfortunately not always an option. It can be hard and frustrating at times, but don't let that stop you though! Places like this forum are definitely good places for networking with other people, or to start finding people who follow similar faiths and spiritualities, and you never know what you may find! ^v^

That being said, even if you are a member of a group, you are still focusing on growing your own spiritual practice, and applying it throughout your own life, which affects the lives of others around you. While looking for other like-minded individuals and groups is a great thing to look for, don't let it stifle your own desire to connect to divinity, and work towards building a meaningful spirituality. :3

Orthodoxy and tradition have their pros and cons. For me it is all in how they approach the subject.

[nbdy]

Re: Labelling My Beliefs

It is possible, and even quite healthy, to have both group and individual practices. I suppose if you choose a group that is all up in your business it could be a problem, but I've never been interested in that kind of group.

[gelman66]

Re: Labelling My Beliefs

When you practice Wicca do you need to worship one god and one goddess? How did you find the right ones for you? Does it change over time? Was there a sign to worship a particular deity? If so what was it?

[Norse_Angel]

Re: Labelling My Beliefs

I have to put in my two cents here, seeing as I may have been mentioned above by a certain someone.
Hi! I am a neo-pagan, or Heathen, who has a very strong stride in what I practice, and can stick to the old ways easily without rewriting the whole pathway. Now, with this being said; it is absolutely possible for religions to skip over cultural walls. There wasn't much of a wall for myself, being Teutonic, but take into consideration Christanity. Chrisitanity was originally a middle-eastern cult, which spread like plague, knocking down doors everywhere from Europe, Spainish lands, and America. It is one of the most practiced religions today, but it started from a very different place than from where you and I sit. Of course things change, but that has not redefined Christianity as a different religion. Sure there are sects, and different paths for a Christian; Lutherin, Catholic, Jesus Lover, Bible Thumper, etc etc, but the ideals stay the same. Cultural differences have not rewritten moral codes. For example, thou shall not wear linens made from the threads of two different types of cloth. Well, obviously every Christian does, but this does not change love thy neighbor. Thou shall not eat shellfish. Well, I know several Chrisitans who will dine on seafood with me, but that does not change their loving pathways. Certain things must change as time goes on, IE the excuses and justifications of slavery, the belittlement of homosexuals, etc, but that should not change the system of which you follow, for if you can lead a Nobel life on the path you chose, it should not negatively effect those around you.
Going back to my belief, yes the Northmen valued many things, but these things can be carried over into the new world we dwell. Valhalla calls to me, where I may feast with the gods, and fight besides them. But when will I die in battle? I feel to enter into Valhalla, I must live a true life, fight for what I believe in, and survive honorably, until my time comes. Some may disagree, but if I fight for a cause I believe in my whole life, is that not worth as much to the gods? There are many traditions that have stuck with us throughout these last centuries, and I find it is quite easy to be authentic. Our texts have survived, and we know a good deal of how our ancestors practiced and payed tribute to the gods. And what is lost is gained back through careful meditation, and research. One can draw their own ideas, and off of the characterized formats of like-practices, one can create their own traditional rituals. If you study the pathway enough, you will find patterns that you can widdle, and craft into your own art.
You talk about Gods being just segments of one God. I disagree with that statement. In some religions, this may be true, but in most Polythestic beliefs, it is everything but.

[gelman66]

Re: Labelling My Beliefs

The Gods being aspects of one God comes from my understanding and knowledge of the biggest survivor of polytheism which is Hinduism. In Hinduism honoring and worshipping the Gods is a pathway to realizing and understanding the true God (Brahman/Atman) in my understanding, there is no consensus on this but this idea among Hindus, but is especially prominent in Vedanta, one of the largest and most influential schools.

On this forum this is the difference between soft polytheism as opposed to hard polytheism.

Thanks for your post Norse Angel. Interesting POV

[gelman66]

Re: Labelling My Beliefs

Wow that's great Roland. Thanks so much. I'm starting my journey with investigating Wicca. There are a few things I like about it so far. I like the connection to nature. I like the duality of the god/goddess. I don't know I lot about magic yet, but I like the concept of natural energy all around us. The rituals seem, the way they are described, alive to me. The moral code is basic but vital to me. Its interesting...

[Briton]

Re: Labelling My Beliefs

I have a strong reaction against the Christian idea that people need to be saved rather than helped.

What makes you believe "salvation" in Christianity is mutually exclusive or separate from helping?

[thalassa]

Re: Labelling My Beliefs

What makes you believe "salvation" in Christianity is mutually exclusive or separate from helping?

I'm not the person that posted that originally, but IMO:

Salvation is a particular dogma. Traditional Christian doctorine says that one is born with original sin and accumulates additional sin (or not) based on what one thinks, says, and does. Salvation comes (more so in many non-Anglican Protestant denominations) sola fides--from faith alone or (in nearly all denominations) from a combination of faith, action, and absolution (from good works, confession, etc). But either way, at the end of the day, Christianity teaches that we have to be saved from ourselves, from being human, in order to be accepted by the Divine.

IMO: Eff that. Babies aren't born with the stain of Adam and Eve's eating an apple in a mythical garden. There is no such thing as sin for which you need divine absolution. You make a choice, you take action, and you take responsbility for your actions for good or ill---THAT is what makes you a good person or not. Redemption, salvation is unnecessary--its (to borrow a term) hubris agains being part of the natural world.

[Briton]

Re: Labelling My Beliefs

I understand Christian soteriology, Catholic, Orthodox and a few Protestant dogmas are all different, some more than others, so your description isn't quite right. I was just curious about OPs view, as a non-standard Christian, that to help them be saved (which I think is sad and unnecessary myself) isn't too help them, there is no better way to help a person in Christian theology than to help save them.

Save them from independent thought, may be!

[thalassa]

Re: Labelling My Beliefs

I understand Christian soteriology, Catholic, Orthodox and a few Protestant dogmas are all different, some more than others, so your description isn't quite right.

As a generality for over 38,000 denominations its never going to be "quite right". But as a variation of the professed belief of most of the Chrisitans that I know of a variety of denominations, from Catholic to Baptist, its not really wrong either.

I was just curious about OPs view, as a non-standard Christian, that to help them be saved (which I think is sad and unnecessary myself) isn't too help them, there is no better way to help a person in Christian theology than to help save them.

Its an internet forum, its fair game. And this idea would be one of many pieces of dogma that caused me to reject Christianity...and I was raised in a liberal and progressive Christiainity.