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The female identity in the bible.

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    #16
    Re: The female identity in the bible.

    True. However, from an unusually large amount of Judaic sources in reference to the names Miriam and Mary, most often than not, the Rabbinical intention is to apply the definition to mean "rebellion." The Rabbinical basis is usually in regards to the bias against the Christian Theotokos, which surprisingly many admit.

    But you are correct in the ambiguity, as the traditional meanings are mostly lost in the ages. Much can be said of the name Rivkah, my second oldest daughter's name which translates modern day to mean "Unfettered, unbound beauty" but can also mean "relentless."
    There is beauty in darkness for those who dare enter the shadows to embrace it. - John Coughlin

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      #17
      Re: The female identity in the bible.

      Originally posted by Azvanna View Post
      Today I was considering how the female identity is portrayed in the Bible. I couldn't think of an example of a sacred story where the female was presented in any other way apart from her attachment to a male. For example, Esther was championed as a hero of her generation among preachers when I was a teenager. They would talk about an "Esther generation" who were willing to take risks for the sake of the gospel, but even she was simply taking orders from her Uncle Mordecai. Ruth is another one, though the success of her story depends on her becoming the bride of Boaz. Can anyone think of any tales where the female is celebrated out of her own right? It might be a theme too out of context of the culture.

      There may not be stories of particular individuals, but there might be attributes you can think of that are given a feminine pronoun. For example, Wisdom.
      I would encourage you to examine Qabbalistic texts for a wealth or empowering feminine figures and concepts assigned a feminine aspect. There are far too many for me to delve into at present, but as has already been touched upon here (I believe), the feminine "presence" of "God" (the Shekhinah) is perhaps at the forefront of my thoughts on the matter.

      For your reading list, if you like:

      On The Wings of the Shekhinah: Rediscovering Judaism's Divine Feminine by Rabbi Leah Novick

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        #18
        Re: The female identity in the bible.

        Originally posted by Torey View Post
        I would encourage you to examine Qabbalistic texts for a wealth or empowering feminine figures and concepts assigned a feminine aspect. There are far too many for me to delve into at present, but as has already been touched upon here (I believe), the feminine "presence" of "God" (the Shekhinah) is perhaps at the forefront of my thoughts on the matter.

        For your reading list, if you like:

        On The Wings of the Shekhinah: Rediscovering Judaism's Divine Feminine by Rabbi Leah Novick
        This right here is what PF is about: A Theistic Satanist is helping a Christian to grow in her faith.

        I will buy that book, Torey. I hate buying books because I have too many already and am really stingy. lol. But I'll buy this one.

        I had forgotten about women being the first to proclaim 'He is risen!' I can't believe that.. I think I have mentioned it on these boards at least twice. I know that in the Hebrew culture of the time, a woman's word could not be considered a trustworthy testimony. However, I really believe that when the women were chosen to be the first to proclaim 'he is risen,' it was an affirming of the worth of a woman's testimony.

        - - - Updated - - -

        Hate is too strong a word. I avoid buying books. Except if they are by Robin Hobb

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          #19
          Re: The female identity in the bible.

          not precicely on topic, *and* I haven't read it, but this looks interesting....
          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
          sigpic

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            #20
            Re: The female identity in the bible.

            Bought this book today ^.^ Found it for just over $24. XD

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              #21
              Re: The female identity in the bible.

              Personally I think Ruth is a strong character. So was Esther.
              www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


              Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                #22
                Re: The female identity in the bible.

                Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
                Personally I think Ruth is a strong character. So was Esther.
                I think so too, but they both have men strongly linked to their purposes. Ruth's happy ending was that she married a rich Jewish guy and Esther was under the direction of her uncle Mordecai.

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                  #23
                  Re: The female identity in the bible.

                  I always read the story of Ruth as her being a strong woman in her own right. She looked after her mother-in-law, she gathered their own food. Boaz was a bit of an aside really... at least that was how I always read it.

                  And Esther was strong too - despite the seemingly passive start, she prevented the slaughter of her people. Yes, Mordecai enlisted her help, but he couldn't have done anything to prevent the genocide without her.

                  The fact that Ruth and Esther loved men didn't make them any weaker in my book. I love Mr Penry, but nobody who knows me would ever describe me as a weak woman.
                  www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                  Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                    #24
                    Re: The female identity in the bible.

                    Both women were very strong leaders in the early church. Their "male counter parts" were mostly uninvolved. The stories were rewritten to remove the focus on strong women which was required by the blossoming church. Women in the priesthood was an unthinkable future. Even in their day Ruth and Esther were out of the generic role of women in Judaism. (though it was not as uncommon as scripture would lead you to believe.) It is considered most likely that Jesus had called for Mary of Magdeline was to lead the church. It was said several times in the gospels that she was the most beloved of Jesus and it is thought that her children were the offspring of Jesus although there was never a marriage document found in the Jewish or Roman records of the time. Mary was from a wealthy family and she served her year as a Temple Maiden (holy harlot) but discovered in that year that sex was fun and was nearly stoned for her promiscuity. There is no doubt that she and Jesus shared a special relationship and that it was removed from the bible. Jesus is, in more than one place, referred to as "Rabbi" which required a man to be married and have children at that time.
                    The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
                    I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

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                      #25
                      Re: The female identity in the bible.

                      Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
                      Both women were very strong leaders in the early church. Their "male counter parts" were mostly uninvolved. The stories were rewritten to remove the focus on strong women which was required by the blossoming church. Women in the priesthood was an unthinkable future. Even in their day Ruth and Esther were out of the generic role of women in Judaism. (though it was not as uncommon as scripture would lead you to believe.) It is considered most likely that Jesus had called for Mary of Magdeline was to lead the church. It was said several times in the gospels that she was the most beloved of Jesus and it is thought that her children were the offspring of Jesus although there was never a marriage document found in the Jewish or Roman records of the time. Mary was from a wealthy family and she served her year as a Temple Maiden (holy harlot) but discovered in that year that sex was fun and was nearly stoned for her promiscuity. There is no doubt that she and Jesus shared a special relationship and that it was removed from the bible. Jesus is, in more than one place, referred to as "Rabbi" which required a man to be married and have children at that time.
                      No offense, but there's so many hypotheses out there regarding Jesus' marital status and many more conspiracy theories about how, why and who changed the Bible overnight or over time. I don't take the Bible literally, but I also don't read what's not there... If that makes sense. It doesn't matter to me if Mary Magdalene was Jesus' wife or not, it does not diminish or embellish her contribution to early Christian heritage.

                      As far as Ruth goes, I see Boaz as her reward and Esther as subservient to Uncle Mordecai. Agreed, they both achieved. In my original question, I'm looking for the female identity celebrated in her own right. In both these stories, the identities of the women are tied to the men in their lives.

                      The idea of the feminine Shekinah or Sophia is the thread i'm pursuing currently. A bit mystic, it is what is most relevant to my spirituality at present.

                      When I'm finished there, I'll look at Judith and Wenny's suggestions. I'm also interested in Miriam, Deborah and Zipporah.

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                        #26
                        Re: The female identity in the bible.

                        In early Christianity, actually, Christians drew lots to decide who would be priest (as well as other rolls). This could just as well be a woman as a man. The anti-female thing didn't come about until much later.

                        Whether Jesus had a wife or not will depend on who is doing the talking. There are Gnostic texts which pretty clearly suggest an intimate relationship. This recently discovered fragment actually quotes Jesus quoting his wife:

                        'Gospel of Jesus' Wife' Papyrus Is Ancient, Not Fake, Scientists And Scholars Say

                        Gnostic texts, with the exception of John, are not considered valid by many Christian denominations. For others, they are.

                        Truth is, but what it is is subject to interpretation.
                        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                          #27
                          Re: The female identity in the bible.

                          So I've been thinking this topic over tonight and in particular why I felt so opposed to Esther and Ruth being satisfactory examples of the divine feminine.

                          When I read the Bible, I'm looking for principles primarily. Ruth is a foreigner who has remained dedicated to her deceased husband's mother. The two have a strong bond and even when Naomi lets Ruth off the hook, Ruth replies your God shall be my God, your people shall be my people. She provides for herself and her mother-in-law as a pauper foraging in the fields until she marries Boaz. So it seems like the moral of the story is to stay faithful to your husband's family and you'll be rewarded by marrying well or something to that effect. Maybe the heroine here is Naomi who grooms her foreign daughter-in-law to become an enviable figure in Jewish culture.

                          The whole book of Esther is full of wisdom. Esther's story is but one thread. She is portrayed as very beautiful and very obedient. Her wisdom is in who to obey in what circumstances. Her bravery is in acknowledging her identity even though it puts her life at risk... Maybe I do have something to learn from her about being honest.
                          The attributes that place her in a position of influence are beauty, obedience and not being demanding. The attributes that cause her to fulfil a destiny are respect for authority, obedience, authenticity, selflessness.

                          So both these stories have their strengths but I'm looking to know the attributes of the Devine feminine devoid of social hierarchy and male attachment. Maybe it doesn't exist and the Devine feminine operates solely under the influence of the masculine. Maybe neither feminine nor masculine exist and I'm creating unnecessary categories.

                          Looking forward to the arrival of that book!

                          - - - Updated - - -

                          Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                          In early Christianity, actually, Christians drew lots to decide who would be priest (as well as other rolls). This could just as well be a woman as a man. The anti-female thing didn't come about until much later.
                          I remember this... This is how Barnabus was chosen as one of the twelve to replace Judas. I can't verify if women were to be included, but the criteria simply was 'one who was with us from the beginning.'

                          Whether Jesus had a wife or not will depend on who is doing the talking. There are Gnostic texts which pretty clearly suggest an intimate relationship. This recently discovered fragment actually quotes Jesus quoting his wife:

                          'Gospel of Jesus' Wife' Papyrus Is Ancient, Not Fake, Scientists And Scholars Say
                          I really need to include the apocrypha in my reading list.
                          Truth is, but what it is is subject to interpretation.
                          All I can do is be open to possibilities. When I do that, all information gets sifted down to principles that are relevant to my whole life up to the present moment. I can't see too far ahead. Facts are helpful, but they're not necessarily what I'm seeking.

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                            #28
                            Re: The female identity in the bible.

                            Azvanna, for what you're looking for, some of the gospels from the Gnostic might be just the ticket. In mainstream Christianity, Peter is the select one on whom the future church is founded (he da rock). In the Gnostic gospels, it is usually somebody else (Thomas - the doubter, even Judas - the betrayer). One of those people is Mary M. There is a Gospel of Mary (http://gnosis.org/library/marygosp.htm), and in several others I've read (but can't remember which ones).

                            But if your interest is specifically in the divine feminine as a thing all of it's own, my preference is for Thunder/Perfect Mind (http://gnosis.org/naghamm/thunder.html). Here is a part - it is beautiful, as poetry, in-and-of-itself:

                            For I am the first and the last.
                            I am the honored one and the scorned one.
                            I am the whore and the holy one.
                            I am the wife and the virgin.
                            I am <the mother> and the daughter.
                            I am the members of my mother.
                            I am the barren one
                            and many are her sons.
                            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                              #29
                              Re: The female identity in the bible.

                              Thanks! Those are interesting links. I have to go to the library today anyway so I'll see if there are any books on the gnostic gospels there. The gospel of Thomas has dramatically shifted my interpretation of other parables in the gospels. Looking forward to this!

                              I'm really embarrassed these last few posts I've been spelling Divine [i]devine[i] like the yoghurt Ski Devine. Haha! Oops.

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                                #30
                                Re: The female identity in the bible.

                                You might be interested in the book WOMEN AND WORSHIP at PHILIPPI by Valerie A. Abrahamsen (ISBN 1-885349-00-9) it starts out with goddess material found in the area but also goes into the early Christian era at the site and discusses some interesting idea's and speculation of women's importance in the early church and at Philippi in northern Greece.
                                I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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