Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

[Medusa]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

You've watched your family members being abused.
You ask a god 'why' and get no answers.

That's what I'm getting from this. I'm sorry, but there is no answer involving a deity that's going to help you. And if you ask why they don't step in..be careful. You might end up like other humans who have done this, pondered it long and hard..and have become atheists after receiving the truth in our eyes. There is no god.

or not.

Anyways, I actually grew more interested in you as a poster when you stopped all that other gibberish and talked about something honest and real in your life. It's hard to watch family members get hurt when you feel as if there is nothing you or they can do about it. We don't always fully know or understand the mind of a victim.

[Domtar]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

Medusa-- yeah I actually started out very atheistic and was just doing meditations with deities as sort of inspiring concepts rather than real beings.

I guess that's were things got weird for me, and I started kind of worrying I had actually gotten involved in some real stuff.

I think atheism is more functional and I tend to come back to it for grounding since ultimately I see that as a likely thing. In some ways I let my tortured suffering mind hope for the divine simply because it provides relief with slightly (though not no!) side effects than a heroin addiction... lol.

As long as it's helping I guess? LOL... then the ravens came hanging out with me.. I had this huge screaming fit with Odin (which I thought was just me venting about the abuse man has inflicted on women and myself specifically) and it got weird, I will say. I don't think it's fair to take a private venting session that I thought was make belief and use it against me though! It's not fair to invade my thoughts like that!

Thankfully I kind of prefer to think the atheist way is the truth because it's let's be have my own thoughts and if I want to rail at reality for sucking ass so hard than who cares? I think being angry about rape and child loss, and abuse and poverty-- that's fine. Anger is also "natural" and sometimes can provide us with a spark to process what is wrong and causing the anger and then fix the source of the problems or do what we can about it.

[thalassa]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

I don't believe in personal gods, period. I don't "believe in" impersonal gods either, rather I suspend my disbelief in them (I've talked in great detail on these forums about the fact that I think agnosticism is the only intellectually honest position on the existence or not of deities).

The gods I worship aren't super-natural super-humanish literal beings. The gods I worship are The Sea, The Sky, The Storm, The Mountain, The Swamp, The Forest, The Hurricane, etc, that have deigned to wear a human idea for a while (Neptune, Ouranos, etc). And if you think The Hurricane cares what one human being does to another, well...I have a bridge in Brooklyn that can pay for my kids' college education. These gods aren't there for you, they don't care if you believe in them or not, they don't care if you worship them or not, they aren't out to be your friend or your mentor or your patron. They exist because they actually exist as a very real thing in either nature or human nature (Love (Aphrodite), War (Mars), etc)...and they exist on a cultural level as a human construct--as the named gods of a certain people's time and place.

[Domtar]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

I guess that's why the ways deities are defined by people (the human construct) matters to me because we can define that.

I don't want to define the husband of my mother as "the terrible one". If it's my construct, why should I support that? If that's largely what it is, than I wish we would create a new mythology that reflects the greater capacity to serve the welfare of humans among us that we have developed.

But I think compassion is a force that exists in reality, I don't think humans invented it. It can exist in a blob of molecules that is a human, I think it can exist elsewhere in the universe and defining the universe as innately disinterested/uncaring toward humans may not be the ultimate truth of the matter.

I share your agnosticism as the most honest position-- like I said earlier, none of us can speak FOR beings that aren't speaking for themselves, (or trust UPG experiences to be a clear voice of any being outside ourself) so unless they actually start showing up and talking to us openly, I will assume I don't know. Still leaves me unsure how to incorporate beings from the stories into my life or if I want to at all. I wonder if we are in need of a new mythology (at least for myself and those who have different values than the old ways of slavery, violence, rape etc).

I think maybe my religion is Legends of Korra, Steven Universe, and Adventure Time. LOL

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

I have to say that even though I had replied earlier with some thoughts, I cannot help but take away from this a bit of insult and feelings of ill will, as no one truly enjoys it when his or her deities are being slandered and placed into the worst possible light. That, and coupled with the initial post filled with obvious anger and uncalled for profanity set me to a point of wanting to respond in kind, but I took a moment to think and let it all settle before attempting a response. I also initially wished to simply let this thread lie so as not to get my ire back up, but it moves into a subject that I feel passionately about, and feel that it is my place as calling myself an Odinsman to step into the fray.

I would ask that you take a gander here http://www.wyrdwords.vispa.com/heath...ysoginist.html , let it sink in a bit, and try to look at it objectively. There is an interesting point made within regarding equality between men and women in Odin's eye, and in a way it has been seen to be reflected to an extent within the culture from which he arose.

Now, as for personal experiences, I'd have to agree with the author of that link and say yes, he surely can be a bit of a bastard. But just like us mortals, there are more aspects to the divine than just what is seen on the surface. Thor is not simply just a hammer swinging, giant killing, loudmouthed brute, but also watches over people, is a symbol of protection, and is a god of fertility. Just as Freya is a lover, seductress, warrior woman, and friend to animals and livestock. She can be gentle and cruel, reveling in battle and offering aid. I am sure that if you do some digging, you can come up with a number of instances in which Frigg has not been the loving, kind, and dutiful protector that you see her as, also. (The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is her sleeping with Odin's brothers, but since I've had basically zero experience with her, that's about all I can offer).

For some reason, people want to raise their voices to the sky and shout at the gods, ranting and raving, asking why they don't step in and save us all, or take action to prevent horrible things from happening, but at the same time those same folks are willing to sit back and watch it all happen, not taking a stand themselves. It's like that joke/parable about the man standing on his house as the flood waters rose. He prayed to be saved, and when a boat came along, he waved it off saying that his god would save him. Later, another boat came along, and he waved that off too. Just before the waters rose to drown him, a helicopter attempted to pull him to safety, but he STILL refused, waiting for his god to come. When he finally drowned and stood before his god, he asked why he didn't come and save him, as he had been a devout worshiper his whole life. His god looked at him and said "I sent you two boats and a helicopter, what else did you want me to do?" Perhaps it is needed for people to stop waiting for the gods to step in, and contemplate that perhaps the gods made THEM aware of the situation so THEY could take the stand and do something about it themselves.

If it is so important to you, step up and face it on your own, and take comfort that maybe, just maybe it's the presence of the gods that has given you the strength to fight rather than simply watch.

[anunitu]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

One might consider when seeking a perfect "God",that as far as myth goes this "God" created imperfect beings that we know as US,and how would a perfect "God" create beings that are flawed as we are..?

Just pondering this question...

[Rae'ya]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

Can I ask you a question, Domtar? If you are so unsatisfied with your knowledge and experiences of the Northern deities, why do you wish to follow them?

There are thousands of deities in the Otherworlds. There are thousands of deities who interface with humans on Thisworld. Perhaps instead of trying to *bully Frigg into suiting your idealistic idea of what she should be, you should be finding a goddess who actually fits your idealistic idea of Great Mother.


*Yes, I absolutely think that what you are doing here is bullying. You are abusing an entity and Her family because She isn't the person that YOU want Her to be. If you believe that Frigg is an actual individual entity who literally exists, then you are bullying her. If you think that Frigg is just a construct, idea or non-literal manifestation of some greater Divine concept, then you are wasting your time with the concept of Frigg when you could be paying more attention to a truer Great Mother archetype.

[Norse_Angel]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

I second Rae'ya
The Northern pathway is not for everyone.

[Domtar]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

Well- agreed, the northern path as presented may not be for me-- so if I feel a deep connection to my ancestors but specifically want to call from them those among them that serve compassion and kindness, who have stood up for justice toward the vulnerable and in need-- does this essentially preclude the values of heathenry?

But, I guess the values of bullying and dominance, might actually make me fit right into heathenry? I guess? Seems that's what's expected in some heathen communities, lot of insults and judgements.

Seems I might fit right in....

I find it hard to believe that accross the germanic lands there have never been peaceful and kind deities that wanted peace for humans. There has been research I've read that there were periods where art in cave paintings was significantly more or less violent (with violence increasing over time in the paintings). We don't have written testimonies of various cultures in the germanic lands, just the tribes the romans and greeks were interacting with frequently in battle (and that really disturbing account of rape and slaughter of a woman at a funeral)... but in that account the women were kept hidden from knowing what was done to her.

I highly doubt that every one of our female ancestors wanted the women to be slaughtered at funerals or for women and children to overwhelmingly be sex slaves. Just as there have been small movements for human rights, peace,and kindness that have cropped up in many ancient cultures, I would bet the same has happened in germanic lands but we don't have evidence of it.

What's more even in the heathen groups I found online that claim not to be openly racist, there's still this attitude that charity is wrong, the disabled should die, or I guess theive or something.

I think the same as some have their hackles up because of how I've described heathenry, what I am describing is that these communities seem to deminish the idea that Frigg and Odin's values are equally represented or that she is an equal. Most people don't know or care much about her because she's not a fighter and she values love and peace. This doesn't get much attention in heathenry so how can she be said to be an equal if her attributes are laughed at? How is me standing up for her values bullying her, when it's what she stands for I want to see more honored?
If Odin is bullying her and I chose to stand for Frigg, how is that bullying Frigg? Yes I do have a hard time reconciling how a mother would let the father rape her children- but I don't know that story is true (or if any of the stories are true) and I personally assume she would be standing up for her children, not siding with Odin on that as she has stood up to him before.

If she is an entity who supports her husband raping or sexually exploiting humans, and I HAVE to view her that way because I have to believe anything humans of old or present made up about her... then yeah I guess it's definitely not for me.

I just have a hard time thinking a deity known for love and peace and maternity would be supporting the rape of her children whether by Odin or anyone else.

- - - Updated - - -

And considering how often it was stated ropes were needed for sex in the Eddas- I really wonder if a culture that was routinely controlling women by force, was actually depicting the heart and true wishes of it's own women. The stories were frequently told and written down by men.

I don't know that we know what Frigg really wanted or she is accurately represented by the people of the time.

[MaskedOne]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

Outside of Rindr*, who precisely has Odin raped? Lets start there and move on.


* While I find the issue with Rindr reprehensible, it was also another case of Odin being willing to commit any atrocity in the pursuit of a larger goal. This particular goal being vengeance for Baldr. While I'm on this topic, why didn't he take vengeance personally?

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

You seem to have this huge obsession with casting out slurs and insults, specifically in the direction of rape and sexual abuse. I think that your personal crusade against such (I agree that it is a horrible thing) is so much of a defining factor of who you are that you are willing to agressively paint anything that might even hint at it with a hateful brush.

Frigg very much was equally as important and respected as her "husband", which I put into quotes because while if you took the time to read the link I previously posted you will understand why. She is a goddess not only of love, marriage, and compassion, but also one of sovereignty, women's strength, and independence. She took her share of lovers, and stood up for herself a number of times. The Northern goddesses (and I include the Jotnir and Vanir) were powerful forces within their own rights, equal in respect and prowess to their male counterparts.

[Thorbjorn]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

A couple of other things to add to Munin-Hugin's excellent post...

If we believe that the Gods are our elder, wiser, greater and more powerful kith and kin, ancestors, relatives, then they are not all that different from us in their foibles and failures. We should be learning from them to not do the things they did that clearly got them into trouble, summarized, albeit rudely and drunkenly in Lokasenna.

We that expect God(dess) to respond the way we want, when, where and how. And it just doesn't work that way. If God sends help, you don't wait for a better offer to come along. Christians always lament "it's God's will", "why does God allow evil?", "why didn't God stop this?". Well, God can't be blamed for everything.

[Domtar]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

There is the issue with rindr, there is the issue in the edda's where Odin (desguised) is telling Thor he could have used help holding a woman down during "sex"- and there is the issue of whether Odin is taking human's as "sex slaves" and actually violating consent as described by krasskova and (from her testimony) others.

In trying to square this I like to think- one if Odin is an archetype this archetype could easily evolve along with humans- such that we can see him no longer practicing such ways. Even if Odin is real and had done such deeds, I like to believe like humans he could evolve beyond such deeds. And of course some could interpret the stories as placing human behaviors of the time onto beings that might not have had such qualities at all but may have (then and now) permitted humans to think of the deities/forces as being human to interact with them better.

I would say the idea that he would still be doing this kind of thing upsets me most especially since I had an experience where I felt like he had visited--- and I wonder if Frigg is my mother why she wouldn't protect me (or if she would?) While as an agnostic I don't take UPG's as automatically real, I don't dismiss them entirely.

I feel like it's entirely possible if there were figures like Brunhild that had had more luck in battle and not been forced to submit to men, we might have seen a very different description our female ancestors wanted for our women and there daughters- and different standards of treatment.

[Medusa]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

Have we learned nothing from Game of Thrones?
The facts: Women throughout history, have been raped and violence put upon them. This isn't a religious issue. It's not a deity issue. It's a human issue.

Stop trying to make deities have human emotions happen.
It's not.

[Thorbjorn]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

It's like that joke/parable about the man standing on his house as the flood waters rose. He prayed to be saved, and when a boat came along, he waved it off saying that his god would save him. Later, another boat came along, and he waved that off too. Just before the waters rose to drown him, a helicopter attempted to pull him to safety, but he STILL refused, waiting for his god to come. When he finally drowned and stood before his god, he asked why he didn't come and save him, as he had been a devout worshiper his whole life. His god looked at him and said "I sent you two boats and a helicopter, what else did you want me to do?"

Just a side note: there is a very similar and colorful Hindu story with exactly the same theme. A man is drowning and calls on each of the Gods but doesn't wait for any one of them to respond before calling on another one. His lack of faith in any of the Gods caused him to drown. Then when he meets God in the form of Krishna, he berates Krishna for letting him drown. Krishna smiles (it's almost impossible to piss Krishna off) and says "Hey, don't blame me if you didn't have faith enough in any of us! We were all ready to respond but by changing your mind you rejected our help".