Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

[Domtar]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

I don't think being hateful is disallowed in heathen values? To a person what they earn by their deeds. I do believe a person can redeem themselves, but let them do so by a combination of time and good deeds-- not unconditional forgiveness and acceptance which I think is a harmful aspect of christian values.

We see priests forgiven over and over sexual abuse. I will not do the same for a human nor a deity.

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If you don't believe there is any possibility deities could be real- then sure- but we are not on the same page there.

If there are no deities at all then I agree it doesn't really matter other than when values are being promoted in a community under the claim that an ancient text said so- which to me is never a good reason for values even if there are real gods.

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If the gods don't exist, or didn't create us, I would say they are off the hook in accountability for the suffering of the world, but if you create a being and do not equip them with the means to support themselves (see disability, child disease abuse, poverty and death) then yeah- you should be on the spot for trying to fix that or to help human communities as a whole be able to fix that.

I know people here are arguing as fact very different beliefs about what the gods are or aren't and my own perspective changes based on how the gods are being defined.

[Thorbjorn]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

Well- agreed, the northern path as presented may not be for me-- so if I feel a deep connection to my ancestors but specifically want to call from them those among them that serve compassion and kindness, who have stood up for justice toward the vulnerable and in need-- does this essentially preclude the values of heathenry?

No, not at all. We're not obligated to venerate any ancestors who were less than savory characters. Ancestry =/= automatic veneration.

But, I guess the values of bullying and dominance, might actually make me fit right into heathenry? I guess? Seems that's what's expected in some heathen communities, lot of insults and judgements.

Seems I might fit right in....

I would not agree with that on the whole. There are

I find it hard to believe that accross the germanic lands there have never been peaceful and kind deities that wanted peace for humans.

Almost all of them, exceptions I can think of are Baldr, Nanna, Forseti, Eir, Lofn, have their dark sides, but also their compassionate and peaceful sides, even Odin.

What's more even in the heathen groups I found online that claim not to be openly racist, there's still this attitude that charity is wrong, the disabled should die, or I guess theive or something.

They are not representative of Heathenism, avoid them like the plague.

I think the same as some have their hackles up because of how I've described heathenry, what I am describing is that these communities seem to deminish the idea that Frigg and Odin's values are equally represented or that she is an equal.

It think it's telling that Frigga is the only God(dess) who is permitted to sit in Odin's seat Hlidskjalf and observe the nine worlds from there. Freyr sat there on the sly but got into a hell of a lot of distress, of his own doing.

Most people don't know or care much about her because she's not a fighter and she values love and peace. This doesn't get much attention in heathenry so how can she be said to be an equal if her attributes are laughed at?

I don't know who is laughing at her. Though it's not attested anywhere in the literature, she's often referred to by Heathens as All-Mother. I don't know where your impression and ideas about her come from, but imo they could not be further from the truth.

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Outside of Rindr*, who precisely has Odin raped? Lets start there and move on.


* While I find the issue with Rindr reprehensible, it was also another case of Odin being willing to commit any atrocity in the pursuit of a larger goal. This particular goal being vengeance for Baldr. While I'm on this topic, why didn't he take vengeance personally?

H.R. Ellis-Davidson might have an analysis in one of her books. I have her book Gods and Myths of Northern Europe. Maybe I'll check there.

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We see priests forgiven over and over sexual abuse. I will not do the same for a human nor a deity.

Then that pretty much rules out most indigenous Indo-European religions for you. Hellenism is completely out, with Zeus raping anything with a pulse, male (Ganymede comes to mind) or female. Even in Hinduism there are stories of the Gods lusting after one another, and sperm flying all over (literally). The most notable one is Shiva chasing after the female avatar of Vishnu, Mohinī, with a raging erection, and taking her right in front of his own wife Pārvatī, who was alternately furious and mortified. If I remember correctly, about the only religions you will find non-sexual deities are Buddhism and Taoism.

[Domtar]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

"I would not agree with that on the whole. There are some on-line communities, e.g. /r/asatru and Facebook Asatru that are absolutely toxic, and are rife with insults."

This is unspeakably helpful to know. These are the kinds of places I have beenlurking and horrified by so please anyone who thinks I am insulting "heathenry" know that I am pissed at the representations of heathenry I have seen in basically all the larger heathen sites I've found like this-- I want to reiterate-- I have not seen the same problems here or a couple other places. I think frankly that if there were gods they would be pissed at what humanity is using heathenry to dish out and serve in those place. It's been a thousand years humanity has had to evolve deeper knowledge wisdom, compassion and tools to serve ourselves and each other and our communities. I would expect the gods (or simply archetypes) people's depictions of the gods to evolve as well. I think heathenry online attracts some of the more trollish sorts who basically want a religious excuse to be as brash and insultive and uncaring as possible-- and I guess it just suprised me there wasn't a stronger online presence of heathens building compassionate community. A lot of us are not in cities where there are enough to make in person communities and online may be all we have for now. I can't imagine Frigg would be pleased for those who go seeking support of other heathens to bemet with insults and laughter and cruelty as I have been and watched others been. A lot of places mocking and making fun of noobs is pretty much the point of the culture it seems or at least the largest bonding point. (Not here.)

I found it a great relief to find here in the rant thread someone else talking their anger and horror at some of the heathen communities online and it at least gives me hope there could actually be a caring and supportive community built around heathenry - and I feel like having some areas like this would be a good thing. Because mother and disability rights is one of my passions- that often requires communities coming together, being willing to form interdependent communities rather than seeing isolationist values as being the only ones that can fit under heathen values- and the communities I was seeing were literally insisting "heathenry is this way, no charity! " etc... I think it's fair that I would feel angry at that and that people are using the havamal to claim it's what Odin wants. Odin might not exist, and Odin did not write the havamal as we have today- so my problem, if we leave Odin and my anger at the support of rape in old cultures and deity systems out entirely, are the values some people are using him to support NOW.

I find it a great relief that others do not practice or believe the same way as I found, and I am not charging all people who practicing heathenry of supporting such values-- merely upset that compassionate community is hard to find in heathenry and I feel like the mothering and nurturing arts should have a valid space in heathenry. I know there must be others who feel this way and I hope that over time maybe such online presence will grow.

The communities that bully out kind people pretty quickly I think make that harder to happen but maybe over time it will.

[Thorbjorn]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

Here are two threads where we've discussed the a-holes that think they represent Heathenry.

http://www.paganforum.com/showthread.php?9890-Ignorance-using-the-faces-of-our-Gods

http://www.paganforum.com/showthread.php?10073-Running-into-quite-a-few-on-line-Heathens-who-are-quite-immature-and-nasty

There are several Facebook groups that categorically, absolutely do not permit racism, insults, mockery or anything that disturbs frith. If it's OK with the staff I'll post the links (another site doesn't permit other religious links, so I'm erring on the side of caution here ).

[MaskedOne]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

Here are two threads where we've discussed the a-holes that think they represent Heathenry.

http://www.paganforum.com/showthread.php?9890-Ignorance-using-the-faces-of-our-Gods

http://www.paganforum.com/showthread.php?10073-Running-into-quite-a-few-on-line-Heathens-who-are-quite-immature-and-nasty

There are several Facebook groups that categorically, absolutely do not permit racism, insults, mockery or anything that disturbs frith. If it's OK with the staff I'll post the links (another site doesn't permit other religious links, so I'm erring on the side of caution here ).

Unless the links are NSFW, contain blatant copyright violation, or gleefully walk through and explain how to conduct violent crimes I probably won't take issue with them. Thal or Juni may have other criteria for killing links but for the most part established members (anyone with more than 15 non-game, non-intro posts) can post links relevant to whatever they are discussing so you'll probably be okay.

[Thorbjorn]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

Unless the links are NSFW, contain blatant copyright violation, or gleefully walk through and explain how to conduct violent crimes I probably won't take issue with them. Thal or Juni may have other criteria for killing links but for the most part established members (anyone with more than 15 non-game, non-intro posts) can post links relevant to whatever they are discussing so you'll probably be okay.

OK, thanks. No, they're none of those things. Here they are. There are a lot more Heathen and Asatru groups, more than I ever imagined but these are the ones I belong to.

Log into Facebook | Facebook Asatru Now
Log into Facebook | Facebook The Asatru Community
Log into Facebook | Facebook American Asatru Association
Log into Facebook | Facebook World Wide Asatru

This is the one I quit due to the mockery and insults. https://www.facebook.com/groups/asatrugroup/ Asatru Group
Even after I quit, posts mocking me were still being made. All because I used the word 'Viking' as a collective name for the Norse.

[anunitu]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

Not a diss guys,but you folks need to take a chill pill really bad.....Talk to Cosby,he knows where to get the good pills...

[Domtar]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

Thorbjorn- I'm sorry you experienced that and you seem a person unworthy of such insults. The more research we do into the physical and long term repercussions of social defeat and attacks (whether family members or peers) the more we are seeing there are real long term repercussions of using such techniques on our fellow beings. The people putting others down get a boost, and the others are damaged. I think there are certainly causes where aggression of either words or physical self defense are warranted, but it should be taken very seriously or at least considered there are repercussions.

That which human words have wrongfully damaged, may human words of peace and kindness restore if you so seek. I thank you greatly for pointing me to good places you have found.

[thalassa]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

I think this would be a helpful read for this conversation.

[Thorbjorn]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

Thorbjorn- I'm sorry you experienced that and you seem a person unworthy of such insults.

Thanks. At first it made me question my own place in and knowledge of Heathenry (which is still new). But then when I considered this site and the other 4 I mentioned, I realized that those people are in an overwhelming minority (I think that's an oxymoron ). They are legends in their own minds and bullies.

[anunitu]

Re: Great Mother- frustration with heathenism and connecting to Frigg

Really good link Thal...good advice for anyone "Looking"