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    Soul Physiology

    In the Neolithic Shamanism book review thread, Rae'ya suggests;

    Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
    Any time you want to discuss the soul complex, let me know.
    Well, why not then. So I'll begin by sharing my own understanding of my soul, and where I came to these conclusions. Perhaps our members could offer their own thoughts on the subject, how their awareness of the soul differs, or compares with mine. I'm interested to learn about how other faiths perceive the soul.

    My very first introduction to the physiology of the soul was in my earlier wiccan days (by BoS entry on the subject was written in 1998, which means I was in a teen coven and getting my information from a whole manor of different books I could find in the local library. I had little Internet access back then, so had to go on what I could find). I believe this concept came from a yoga manual. Rather than the body being an aspect of the soul, it was presented as being the other way around, that the soul was a layer of our physical body. It called these layers the Physical Body (Annamayakosha or food sheath), the Astral Body (comprised of the pranic sheath, mental sheath and intellectual sheath) and the Causal Body (Karana Sharira or seed body). I clung to this system for many years, and when I was in a position to meet and work with other, more grown up and experiences witches, I was pleasantly surprised to learn that this system is pretty common within Wicca, presumably because Gardner drew from various sources, including Eastern influences. In those days, I was already constantly dieting and most probably had an eating disorder, so any work I was doing to strengthen my 3 bodies was probably being negated by the excessive fasting. I didn't have BDD at this time. I think I knew I had an odd face, and I already had a broken jaw from a skateboarding accident, but an ex-girlfriend had told me I had a pixie face, like I was of the fae world, and that made me feel good about my odd appearance.

    It was about 6 years later that I started to find inspiration in Anderson feri traditions. These groups are pretty diverse, with some calling themselves shamans (sorry Rae'ya, they don't seem to have gotten your message about using 'shamanist' I'm afraid), and others even calling themselves wiccans. From what I've so far read of Neolithic Shamanism, I'd say AF could well be described as the Celtic equivalent of what they've done with the Nordic faiths. That is, rather than concerning themselves too much with historical accuracy, things are done because 'the spirits told us to do it this way', some aspects, those that Victor Anderson himself learnt with his contact with the spirits, have become a backbone of the traditions (most of which are initiatory with a value on lineage to Victor). Of course, as a non-initiate, I've had to learn from fringe versions, and fill in the gaps the only way an Anderson Feri witch should; by asking the spirits themselves (how accurately I received their messages is another subject of course, although at the time I was much more grounded, stable and spiritually aware than I have been for the last few years. I had allowed my faith to be ridiculed and my self-respect destroyed 5 years ago. I've had to build myself back up from scratch. It's why I'm so inspired by my BoS; it's like the previous version of myself is re-teaching me those things I'd forgotten).

    One thing that is common knowledge within these traditions, is the anatomy of the soul. This is now the version I use, and this sadly has no emphasis on the physical body (and yes, come to think of it, it was after this switch that the BDD appeared, although it became much worse after that unfortunate relationship). This too is a 3 part system, although they're not really layered. It begins with the talking self, the part of you that is your every day thoughts and feelings.. the ego.. the intellect. I guess it's basically the astral body. Then there's younger self (often called the fetch). This is a part of me that I couldn't change my belief of. I know my fetch well, and have done for many years now. Some might call the fetch the higher self, she definitely knows much more than I am consciously aware that I know. I use hypnosis, and have recently, after about a year and a half of trial and error, learnt to make effective self-hypnosis recordings (which I'm very excited about!!). My fetch does a lot of work to take these hypnotic suggestions from my conscious mind and allow them to make real changes in my sub-conscious. She is also apparently (although honestly, I don't feel this process personally) responsible for transferring messages from the godself to my conscious mind. Which brings me to the godself (or deep self), which others would argue is the subconscious rather than the fetch. This part of me has become ever more important because of my new concept of deity. Anderson Feri tells us this is located above the head, and in one of the many crazy coincidences, the inner flame meditation that I started using again just as these changes in perception were beginning, has a section where you visualise a ball of light above your head that rains down on you.. it was largely this part that made me realise I have to start using this meditation again. (this meditation was also from a library book btw, called 'Being the Light' By, I think, John Pepper, I've tweeked it a bit of course).

    I like the above system. It works for me and it feels tangible enough to trust in it, but it doesn't have the emphasis on the physical body, and I'd like now, to include this too as a part of talking self. After all, you can't talk without a mouth, a tongue, facial muscles and vocal chords can you?

    I certainly like the theory, and am willing to explore this idea further. I know something felt instantly right when I read that line in the book. Somehow, I just knew this was somehow the key to overcoming my dysmorphia and loving my 'Brian Froud faerie features' once more. I'm just not entirely sure where to start. I was hoping the book would offer more than just grounding and centering in the Earth section (okay, it does.. but it's all wicca 101 stuff too, it's not like I wasn't already doing those things). Maybe the fact I've started meditating more deliberately every day will help. I might also dust of the old Fellowship of Isis course material and see if there were any lessons in the temple of the Earth that I could revisit.

    Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
    It's also quite difficult to do much in the way of shamanic journeying if you don't have a good grasp of how your physical and astral bodies work, interact and connect with each other.
    If I don't engage all 3 aspects of my soul, I just get an imaginary playground. I like it, and I use this aspect of Rotokia even now to unwind and for a bit of escapism. But as we've previously discussed, there was too much of this and not enough deliberate effort to journey. My second world appears to be much deeper, and because there is much less dialogue, it is more image-based, which is more characteristic of my fetch speaking to me. I don't go there more than once or twice a week though, because I won't allow myself to visit while in bed, as this just lends itself to daydreaming, because that's how the bulk of my Rotokia adventures were experienced. I also think that going there sparingly, allows me more time to fully digest the information I receive.
    夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

    #2
    Re: Soul Physiology

    IMO (and Jem, you should read the blog I posted here not too long ago) the Self is our physical self and our consciouness, and that our "soul" is that consciousness plus the *spark of life* (or whatever you want to call it) that ties the two together. as for the consciouness, if you read that blog post of mine (which i cant link on my phone), I mention the fetch, talking self and godself , which I combine with jung's eco, anima/animus, etc, and then tie it to the chakras.
    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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      #3
      Re: Soul Physiology

      Originally posted by thalassa View Post
      IMO (and Jem, you should read the blog I posted here not too long ago) the Self is our physical self and our consciouness, and that our "soul" is that consciousness plus the *spark of life* (or whatever you want to call it) that ties the two together. as for the consciouness, if you read that blog post of mine (which i cant link on my phone), I mention the fetch, talking self and godself , which I combine with jung's eco, anima/animus, etc, and then tie it to the chakras.
      I'll dig around for the article. Thanks for the recommendation. It does indeed sound to be in the direction I'm leaning. I did extensive work on the concept of sub-personalities, which I then blended with the concept of Jung's ego and created what I called 'the shadow subs', but I never quite explored the concept of the anima and animus. The Fellowship of Isis course covered it and other ideas I've worked with were built on the concept, but I never really took the idea any further, and there's no mention of it at all in my BoS.

      I slept in tonight, so it may be tomorrow before I get to read the article, but I definitely will!
      夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Soul Physiology

        Now before I start just remember... you asked for it!

        The NT concept of the soul matrix has a lot of various parts, but through my research I've found that they link up pretty well with some of the traditional concepts you see in Eastern faiths as well as psychology. I'll try and link my NT soul parts (which I use the Old Norse names for) in with other concepts, but bear in mind that all my books (including my physical notes) are in storage at the moment and I only have one set of notes on the computer plus what I carry around in my brain... so if I get any of the non-NT terms a bit screwy then forgive me! I haven't extensively linked things up with non NT theories... just made some connections during my research.

        Physical BodyNeolithic Shamanism thread some ideas about how to work with the physical body, seeing as it probably suits the whole 'World of Earth' discussion more than this one.

        Astral Body (the Hamr) - in NT shamanism, the hamr (hame is the more common spelling) is the astral body that can be separated from the physical body, and which walks around in the Otherworlds or in the Astral Plane when you go off journeying or astral travelling. As far as I can gather, it's probably what is called the Etheric Body or Etheric Template in modern energy work systems, but modern neo-pagan systems usually have something called the 'astral body' which may or may not quite match up with energy work system or traditional Eastern layers (keeping in mind I use the term 'traditional Eastern' VERY loosely, as there are something like twenty different systems that can fall under that label). The Hamr is the 'true' image of the self... it's shape is who you really are, or who you really see yourself as... in cases of people with gender dysphoria, the astral body will be the correct gender, while the physical body is the one that was glitched when conceived. The astral body may look different to the physical body, which can create body dysphoria (and BDD when severe enough). In cases of Otherkin, the hamr is often the shape of the non-human self, and is the source of 'phantom tail/ear/wing/whatever' sensations (also the source of phantom limb sensations after amputations... because the astral limb is not amputated along with the physical one).

        The Hamr can also be shapechanged... at will if you have that skill, or accidentally if you hate your physical body hard enough and project your preferred image onto your astral body. That's what I mean when I say that the astral body is the 'true' image of the self... it's starts off a certain way at birth, but it's actually possible to make it look different as you grow and evolve as a person... which can be a powerful spiritual tool OR can be a source of incredible turmoil and disconnect. Chronically shapechanging your hamr can be a tool to help with things like gender reassignment or cosmetic surgery, or it can create chronic illness because the astral body tries to pull the physical body into line with it... which in many cases is impossible without surgical or hormonal help. Usually, the astral body is the 'stronger' one when it comes to the two lining up with each other... the astral body is the one that the rest of the identity thinks is 'ME', and it tries to make the physical body follow suit. The stability of the connection between the astral and physical bodies, and the ability to separate them, depends on the person. People with dysphoria of any sort often find it easy to disconnect the two, while very grounded and self confident people will often find it difficult. As a shamanist, you want to be able to disconnect your Hamr at will so that you can go off journeying (in the NT and Heathen paths it's called 'faring forth')... which is easier for some than for others!

        Life Spark Divine Connection Mind and Memory (Hugr and Munr) - This one is very NT/Heathen specific but it roughly equates with the Mental Body/Layer, the Ego and/or the Talking Self. They are usually listed as two separate parts but treated together, as they are inextricably linked together. Basically, they are the left and right brain respectively... the Hugr is the part of you that is rational thought, cognition and intellect while the Munr (aka Minni) is the part of you that is reflective thought and intuition. The Munr is also the seat of your memories and experiences, which inform your thoughts and beliefs, and is therefore an important part of what makes you, YOU. In my personal experience, the Hugr and Munr are connected with the Third Eye chakra. This is the 'Mind' part of the Mind-Body-Soul idea... in the NT we just consider it ALL to be the 'Soul Complex/Matrix'. You can also consider the Hugr and Munr to be the 'consciousness', especially the waking consciousness or personal consciousness, as opposed to the subconscious or group consciousness.

        Emotional BodyFetch (the Fylgja) - The Fetch is a variable sort of part... and it roughly links with the ideas of the Anima/Animus and the Shadow, though it's not quite and exact match. It can also link up with the idea of personal animal totems and Innerworlds spirit guides. The Fylgja is an astral manifestation of a part of the self which can be sent forth to run errands in the Otherworlds, can do battle on your behalf, can communicate with the fylgja of others, or can stand in as a copy of you. It's usually either an animal, a humanoid of opposite gender, or sometimes just an amorphous shape. I'm personally inclined to think that the Fylgja is not a set figure, but differs depending on what the individual person needs and does. Personally I think it starts off as an innate ability of the soul (the ability to split a part off as a fetch)... but that the actual manifestation part will depend on who you are, what path you follow and what your early exposure to the idea of the fetch/fylgja is. This is why some people have an Anima/Animus, some people have a humanoid doppelganger, some people have an animal 'servant-guide' and some have an internal companion type of fetch.

        Personal Luck (the Hamingja) - From here on out we're all Northern concepts, which I haven't really found equivalents for in the standard Eastern-inspired energywork systems. The Hamingja is the manifestation of the personal luck. This is a tricky concept to describe, because we call it 'luck' but that's a very limited word and the Hamingja goes a bit beyond the modern definition of 'luck'. Hamingja is earned through your own personal actions and words... particularly in respect to other people. Some say you can't earn Hamingja in isolation... you must have people around you to generate it. Heartfelt gifts from other people generate Hamingja, as do gifts you give to others, actions you do for others, the opinion that others have for you, and the honor of everyday life (such as whether you uphold hospitatlity, avoid being judgemental, keep to your word... things like that). Hamingja may also be passed down through families, as the wife is considered to the the keeper of the family's Hamingja. It's kind of a mixture of your reputation and your personal integrity... and it manifests as 'luckiness'. It's kind of a... reaping the benefits of your actions kind of thing. High Hamingja will bring you good fortune and elevate you in the eyes of the gods and the people around you. You gain and lose it depending on your actions, so you have to look after it.

        Personal Power (the Megin) - The Megin is a little bit like the Hamingja, but it is less about the people around you and more about you. It's your integrity and honor, and is gained or lost through actions, just like the Hamingja. But rather than manifesting as luck and fortune, it manifests as personal power, strength and a tangible ability to affect the world around you. It's not dependant on the people around you - though having high Hamingja will feed into your Megin - but rather is purely based on your actions and deeds. This is what makes the Hero the charismatic, powerful being that he/she is. It's a concept that really only makes sense within the Northern cultural context and doesn't translate so well in a secular sense.

        Willpower (the Vili) - pretty self explanatory. In the NT, the personal Will is considered to be a part of your soul matrix.

        Woo-Woo Power

        Zest for Life
        (the Litr) - This is your 'blooming hue', your energy, your motivation, your inner zest, your vivacity, your virility, and to a certain extent, your health. It waxes and wanes with your mood and mental and emotional health. Bouts of depression are marked with a very low Litr, whereas those frenetic people who can't sit still for two seconds have high Litr. It counts as part of your soul complex because without it, you aren't capable of doing anything at all, and because finding a balance and a way to channel your Litr is an important part of being a balanced person. It also counts because it was given to us when Othinn and his brothers created humans... it was one of the gifts of life that made us alive.

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          #5
          Re: Soul Physiology

          Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
          Now before I start just remember... you asked for it!
          I wouldn't expect anything less Rae'ya! ^^

          That way way more complex than I was imagining. Something that struck me though, was that it seems that rather then the 3 part soul idea being different, it is more that it is massively simplified. Does this mean the fetch actually came from Heathenism/NT? If so, then I wonder how it made its way into Anderson Feri. It does appear that the concept has been widely adopted by pagan/wiccan groups, most likely via Starhawk (she seems to have popularised quite a few aspects of Anderson Feri, such as the pentagrams of Pearl and Iron, so she's the most likely culprit). I'm very interested to know where it appeared first.

          I was interested when you said that it was a mistranslation that led to the view that Eastern spiritual traditions seek to transcend the body. I couldn't tell you the amount of times I read, or was told, words to the effect of 'unlike Eastern traditions that seek to transcend the body, <insert pagan tradition here> celebrates the physical as sacred.' It appeared so many times that I just sort of took it as gospel and swallowed this misconception. Come to think of it, you'd think the fact I learnt about the 'food sheath' from a yoga book would have led me to question this notion. Then again, the book was likely written by and for western practitioners, so it may not have been an accurate description.

          I imagine it won't do a great deal of harm to continue with my current concept of the soul, but to explore and add other aspects as they appear relevant.

          For now, I'm continuing to build up a new connection with my physical body. For a while now, I've been doing an exercise where I look into the mirror and send love to the areas I dislike. It wasn't working, but then I realised that sending love isn't all that is needed. So instead I've been sending forgiveness to my body during meditation, and asking that it forgive me. Somehow, this feels more healing. I think I need this mutual forgiveness first, before randomly sending 'love' will make any difference.

          On my way to work tonight, I found a young man unconscious on the street. I couldn't wake him so called an ambulance (I ended up late for work and as the operator kept me on the phone so long they couldn't contact me to ask where I was... I'm sure they didn't believe me!). He had alcohol on his breath and there was a bottle next to him, so it's possible it was this that caused him to lose consciousness, or maybe he fell and knocked himself out. I don't know. But although he was out cold, he was still breathing. His body was keeping him alive, taking care of him while he lay helpless on the pavement. It made me consider how much our bodies actually do for us. How much they fight to keep us alive, how much mistreatment and injury they can withstand. I used to think we're so fragile, that we break so easily. We don't though. We just have a limit. I have a duty to keep my body as healthy as possible. To respect it. To help it do the best job it can. I'm sorry I neglected my physical health for so long.
          夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Soul Physiology

            Jem, this is what I was talking about (its longer on my regular blog than what I posted in the blogs here).


            Also...are you familiar with bri and bua? Its an idea from ADF Druidry regarding the inherent "power" of a person (bri) vs the acquired/lost "power" of a person (bua)...from what I understand (from the hubby) there's not a lot of historical evidence for this being applied to people, as much as it was to the landscape...and then I guess, adopted by ADF? Either way, its a core teaching in their Dedicant Path. There's some different ideas about it though...that its got almost yin yang attributes...I dunno.

            But, there are two other competing Druid ideas of "the Self", one is based on the Cauldron of Poesy*, and the other on the Nine Elements .

            *this is the one I like best


            About the Cauldron of Poesy:

            Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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              #7
              Re: Soul Physiology

              Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post

              Woo-Woo Power
              I can think another reasons that I wouldn't necessarily include this one than lack of historic support. A lot of arcana, I would actually view as the province of other soul aspects. There's already two aspects for soul travel (Hamr and Fylgja), an aspect that handles divine connections (, 4 different aspects that tie into personal capacity to affect the world (Hamingja, Megin, Vili, Litr). I could see an argument being made that magic is accomplished through those aspects and has no need for an independent aspect.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Soul Physiology

                Finally, I have a chance to reply. I'd intended to read your blog and then reply last night, but my boss had a few extra jobs for me (like print out a 10 part holiday planner that was split over 10 separate documents for some reason, and type up some new forms for documenting the security of the building), then the bugger got up and came downstairs at 4:30 in the morning, essentially removing 2 hours from my 'me time'. (Seriously, who gets up at that time?). So I started this before work and will finish it now...

                Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                Jem, this is what I was talking about (its longer on my regular blog than what I posted in the blogs here).
                I can see why you thought I should read that. It really does blend nicely with the concepts I'm so far familiar with. Thank you. I am especially interested in the idea of contacting my Wounded Self, as this is a concept that I never came across before. The others are all either something I've done in a deliberate way, or inadvertently as part of the FOI magi degree (The Mirror Self and Shadow Self was part of the prelude to my sub-personality work, although I only really kept up my exploration of the latter, albeit with a set of 'shadow subs' reflecting various facets of the shadow).

                Also...are you familiar with bri and bua? Its an idea from ADF Druidry regarding the inherent "power" of a person (bri) vs the acquired/lost "power" of a person (bua)...from what I understand (from the hubby) there's not a lot of historical evidence for this being applied to people, as much as it was to the landscape...and then I guess, adopted by ADF? Either way, its a core teaching in their Dedicant Path. There's some different ideas about it though...that its got almost yin yang attributes...I dunno.
                No, I'd never come by this concept. Tbh, I never went too deep into modern Celtic paths. If I remember correctly, I think I followed some links that were shared in the Celtic section on PF, and was quickly put off. It was mainly recon groups and I felt it terribly stiff and elitist; like everyone was trying to out smart one another and prove their personal theories to be the most accurate. I kinda popped my head in, then slowly backed away. These days though, I think I'm a bit more grounded and secure in what I believe, so it's definitely something I should try again. I'm just not so good at doing online research. I think it's something about reading off a screen compared to holding a nice book in my hands. Books are of course an option, but there's much less information available in a book. Of course, I have no intention of going down the reconstruction route, but I guess I can't deny that my beliefs have a distinctive Celtic flavour, so maybe I should start looking into books on modern Druidism and Druidry (assuming these words have the different meanings I think they do ie. the religion and the arts), specifically those of a recon nature that will be keen on proving to the reader that their concepts are legit because they're backed up by various sources.

                But, there are two other competing Druid ideas of "the Self", one is based on the Cauldron of Poesy*, and the other on the Nine Elements .

                *this is the one I like best
                These are absolutely fascinating. I've never heard anything like these concepts of the Self. I'm actually surprised that there is so much detail in the surviving texts and accounts of Celtic societies. Honestly, I thought it was largely material written after the conversion to Christianity had begun, and was mostly folklore and chronicles of various wars and disputes.

                I really need to give the Japanese textbooks a holiday, pull my finger out and start doing some serious research. Until fairly recently, I had very little understanding of the history of the British Isles. Then one day I decided I really need to at least have a concept of the progression from the stone age to modern day, so started recording and watching documentaries at work. Not the most elegant place to start, but it's a start nonetheless.

                Thanks for the pointers. I guess I'll take a closer look at some ADF Druidry sites, and see which book titles get name dropped the most.
                夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Soul Physiology

                  Originally posted by Keldorn View Post
                  I can think another reasons that I wouldn't necessarily include this one than lack of historic support. A lot of arcana, I would actually view as the province of other soul aspects. There's already two aspects for soul travel (Hamr and Fylgja), an aspect that handles divine connections (, 4 different aspects that tie into personal capacity to affect the world (Hamingja, Megin, Vili, Litr). I could see an argument being made that magic is accomplished through those aspects and has no need for an independent aspect.
                  I'm actually inclined to agree with you here. There are several parts of the NT soul map that I don't necessarily relate to 100%... this being one of them (another is the Gothi/Gythja). I've spent a lot of time on my version of the soul map (which splits the above list plus a few things I didn't include into something along the lines of 'soul parts', 'attributes' and 'guardian spirits' for lack of better terms), and on cross matching it against my research into energy work and the traditional soul maps of other cultures. It's a work in progress, but is one of the projects I've been tasked to do. "Learn about the energy body" I was told... "you're good at anatomy... learn the anatomy of the soul and I'll teach you how to manipulate it and heal it". I just didn't realise at the time how much work would go into the anatomy part!

                  - - - Updated - - -

                  Using my tablet, so multi-quoting will be a bit clunky... just bear with me! (Also tablet tends to crash so posting piecemeal).

                  Originally posted by Jembru View Post
                  I wouldn't expect anything less Rae'ya! ^^

                  That way way more complex than I was imagining. Something that struck me though, was that it seems that rather then the 3 part soul idea being different, it is more that it is massively simplified.
                  The further I get into my soul anatomy research the more I realise that the different systems are really just inteface tools... I don't think that my soul is any different to, say a Kemetic's soul... it's just that the cultural context provides a different interface through which we work with it. The areas of focus change a bit, but that doesn't mean that non-focus areas don't exist... just that they are more important to some than to others.

                  Does this mean the fetch actually came from Heathenism/NT? If so, then I wonder how it made its way into Anderson Feri. It does appear that the concept has been widely adopted by pagan/wiccan groups, most likely via Starhawk (she seems to have popularised quite a few aspects of Anderson Feri, such as the pentagrams of Pearl and Iron, so she's the most likely culprit). I'm very interested to know where it appeared first.
                  As far as I'm aware, the 'fetch' comes from Irish traditions, but it's close enough to the Old Norse 'fylgja' that it's possible it arrived in Ireland via Viking Age migrants. But don't quote me on that... I've not actually tracked the etymology.

                  I was interested when you said that it was a mistranslation that led to the view that Eastern spiritual traditions seek to transcend the body. I couldn't tell you the amount of times I read, or was told, words to the effect of 'unlike Eastern traditions that seek to transcend the body, <insert pagan tradition here> celebrates the physical as sacred.' It appeared so many times that I just sort of took it as gospel and swallowed this misconception. Come to think of it, you'd think the fact I learnt about the 'food sheath' from a yoga book would have led me to question this notion. Then again, the book was likely written by and for western practitioners, so it may not have been an accurate description.
                  It wasn't until I started doing yoga that I truly appreciated that it's the balance between the physical and non physical that facilitates transcendance... I knew theoretically that the physical body was important in Eastern traditions, but that knowledge was filtered through the whole 'Eastern = transcendant, Western Pagan = earthly realm' paradigm that we are taught by neopagan authors. I've since learned that's a really limited interpretation of a complex system and I think it's a real shame that particular complexity hasn't translated well into Western neopaganism.

                  For now, I'm continuing to build up a new connection with my physical body. For a while now, I've been doing an exercise where I look into the mirror and send love to the areas I dislike. It wasn't working, but then I realised that sending love isn't all that is needed. So instead I've been sending forgiveness to my body during meditation, and asking that it forgive me. Somehow, this feels more healing. I think I need this mutual forgiveness first, before randomly sending 'love' will make any difference.
                  I'm glad you came to this conclusion, because this is really important for reconciling your dislike of a part of yourself. It's not just about throwing an amorphous sense of 'love' at something... in order to truly accept something you need to understand it and work with it. When you think of, say your partner... you love them even though you know their faults, they don't look exactly how you pictured your dream spouse, sometimes they annoy you and sometimes you want to slap them... you don't love them because you wrapped their image in white light... but because you know them, appreciate their value, accept their imperfections and forgive the things that are not exactly how you'd construct them.

                  Treat your body the same way. Get to know it, how it works, what it's strengths and weaknesses are, what it needs, what it likes, what it dislikes... then learn how to coexist with it. Respect it's boundaries and it's imperfections. The love will follow.

                  - - - Updated - - -

                  Jembru, I have two particular books you might be interested in looking at to help with this whole journey...

                  Soul Retrieval by Sandra Ingerman - this is a good introductory text for shamanists who would like to do the sorts of Innerworlds soul retrievals that have become popular in the modern shamanist community. Ingerman does soul retrievals professionally as part of her counseling and therapy practice, and this book has lots of tips and information for those who wish to do a self-guided soul retrieval type journey. Personally I believe that soul retrieval is almost always an Innerworlds issue, because it's actually really rare for you to lose a part of yourself to the Otherworlds without it having been stolen by an entity who lives there (which is equally as rare), but remember that most neoshamanists don't use my terminology and talk about journeying as though it's all in the external Otherworlds... Ingerman is no exception to that. [Sometimes I wonder whether many shamanist authors even believe in external Otherworlds, but that's a whole other topic]. It's absolutely possible to have parts of yourself get lost in the Innerworlds, and finding them and reintegrating them can be a very healing process. It's arguable whether soul fragments are actually parts of the actual soul, or whether it's a more psychological sort of 'fractured psyche' type thing (personally I lean towards the latter)... just remember not to take everything written as literal. And if you don't feel comfortable doing this sort of thing without professional guidance, then don't. But generally, Innerworlds soul retrieval is actually a fairly straightforward and 'safe' process to do yourself as long as you aren't looking for parts that may be buried down deep and bring up traumatic emotions that you've buried rather than processed. Those sorts of traumas are best processed with a professional guiding you through it, so that they can help you deal with the emotional and mental backlash.

                  The Personal Totem Pole by Eligio Stephen Gallegos. This is a great little system for anyone who resonates with animal energies to work with. Gallegos is a psychotherapist (not pagan at all) who developed this system, which has since been passed on via a number of students (some of whom have evolved the system a bit, from what I can tell of the current websites vs the original book). Basically, as a pagan shamanist, you do an Innerworlds journey to meet the 'animals totems' of your various aspects of self (Gallegos loosely linked them up with the chakra system, but you could adapt it any way you wish). You then work with those animals as a personification of the sections of your self (which always seemed to me a bit safer than the common 'parts therapy' style systems). The animal species can represent the way that you tend to operate in that area, while the individual animal persona that develops is a reflection of the 'health' of that particular area and your relationship to it. Say the animal of your personal power (solar plexus chakra) is a Tiger, but when you first meet it, it's caged and chained and muzzled and immediately attacks you when you try to set it free... perhaps you have the sort of personal power that frightens you with it's potential, so you've locked it away where it can't hurt anyone, but that's caused you to become increasingly frustrated and disillusioned about your own potential, until you're constantly berating and negating yourself with thoughts of uselessness, powerlessness and weakness, which in turn feeds back into the cycle of frustration. Trying to reconcile with that potential will need some finesse and groundwork, because if you're afraid of it, and you resent yourself over it, you can't just set it loose and expect it to be all hunky dory... you have to re-establish the relationship and regain the trust in yourself before you can embrace that potential personal power. Does that make sense? As someone who resonates strongly with animal energies, this system really just 'clicks' for me, and I've been working with it for years. I use the chakra system, so far the seven main chakras plus the grounding chakras in the base of the feet, and the simplified associations of grounding, foundation and stability, social and sexual relationships, personal power, love and emotional relationships, communication, thought and intuition (for me this chakra actually has two animals, which was very confusing at first but which I later realised reflected the Hugr and Munr quite nicely), and connection to deity. The chakra associations are a useful tool rather than literal, and as this is all about learning more about yourself I think you could adapt it into any sort of energy body or soul anatomy system you liked.

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                    #10
                    Re: Soul Physiology

                    You know, I wish we could run into one another in Chat one day Rae'ya. Both you and Thal appear to have a lot of wisdom between you that applies to my own personal path.

                    Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                    I just didn't realise at the time how much work would go into the anatomy part!
                    I don't think it is my work to explore the anatomy of the soul, I'm definitely meant to be working out a system that works for me, and after little more than a week of this work, I can already appreciate how vast a task that would be.

                    I feel much more 'real', and part of the world around me since including my physical body as a part of my soul. I also feel much happier with my physical appearance. My hair was dry and frizzy just a few weeks ago, yet despite doing nothing different, it's suddenly shiny and looks like I've recently had it cut (It was last cut last December!). My skin looks healthier too, and I don't notice the circles under my eyes so much now. Before they looked like I'd been punched in the face, but now it just looks like my bone structure, but my eyes are otherwise bright and healthy. I'm sure what has really happened, is that I'm not judging myself so harshly, or worrying so much, so I'm seeing what is really there, instead of blowing my imperfections out of all proportion. But learning to love and accept my body is almost certainly what has helped me to get to this point. It's early days, and a daresay I'll have relapses along the way, but I'm really pleased to have gotten to this point.

                    As for what lies within this outer shell.. I'm still contemplating that. I've started to explore the concept of Thal's 'wounded self', but so far only in writing. I'm not quite ready to attempt to meet with this part of me.

                    Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                    As far as I'm aware, the 'fetch' comes from Irish traditions, but it's close enough to the Old Norse 'fylgja' that it's possible it arrived in Ireland via Viking Age migrants. But don't quote me on that... I've not actually tracked the etymology.
                    I remember reading somewhere (possibly a link shared on this forum), that there is evidence that Celtic and Norse religions shared a common ancestor (that's also shared with Hinduism). So while they'll have grown separately and been shaped by the different environments, lifestyles and cultures of their individual societies, they may well have still shared some key features. So maybe both fetch and fylgja, are derived from the same word, long forgotten. Or else, if the documentaries I've been watching at work are to be believed, there were almost certainly trade links between the North East of England and mainland Europe at least as far back as the Roman occupation, so maybe one group taught the concept to the other at some point. (Interestingly, it is said that a lot of our local dialect, 'Geordie' is due to us retaining more Anglo-Saxon words than standard modern English. I don't know how true this is, but our grandparents like to tell us how 'yem' (home), 'mara' (friend) and 'divvin't (don't) are all due to us keeping our trade ties with the mainland long after the Norman invasion. History isn't my thing of course, so this could all be local folklore, and these words could simply be the result of poor education).

                    Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                    It wasn't until I started doing yoga that I truly appreciated that it's the balance between the physical and non physical that facilitates transcendance... I knew theoretically that the physical body was important in Eastern traditions, but that knowledge was filtered through the whole 'Eastern = transcendant, Western Pagan = earthly realm' paradigm that we are taught by neopagan authors. I've since learned that's a really limited interpretation of a complex system and I think it's a real shame that particular complexity hasn't translated well into Western neopaganism.
                    That was very much the feeling I got from your previous post. Like I said before, it is weird that despite starting off with the concept of the food sheath as a layer of the soul, I lost this idea along the way, even though I was myself, repeating that same notion that 'we pagans celebrate the physical as much as the spiritual'. Words are just words if they're not backed up by actions though, and while as a general rule I've always practised a good healthy balance of study and action, that was one area where I'd clearly missed the message that was right in front of me.

                    Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                    I'm glad you came to this conclusion, because this is really important for reconciling your dislike of a part of yourself. It's not just about throwing an amorphous sense of 'love' at something... in order to truly accept something you need to understand it and work with it. When you think of, say your partner... you love them even though you know their faults, they don't look exactly how you pictured your dream spouse, sometimes they annoy you and sometimes you want to slap them... you don't love them because you wrapped their image in white light... but because you know them, appreciate their value, accept their imperfections and forgive the things that are not exactly how you'd construct them.

                    Treat your body the same way. Get to know it, how it works, what it's strengths and weaknesses are, what it needs, what it likes, what it dislikes... then learn how to coexist with it. Respect it's boundaries and it's imperfections. The love will follow.
                    It was only through repeatedly getting it wrong, that I was eventually able to find the right approach. I'm glad I did, but I should have gotten to this point much sooner. I just had so much faith in the cognitive therapy methods I was using, that I kept blindly following them long after it was obvious it wasn't working. I'm sure there are still underlying issues that caused this mis-connection with the physical in the first place. I'm going to have to address these while I'm in this stronger place, or I risk falling back into my old patterns as soon as any kind of upset happens in my life. That's why Thal's idea of the wounded self stood out to me so strongly. I liked the idea of attempting to know the underlying causes, and allowing it to manifest in a more controlled and healthy way, rather than simply suppressing it, or attempting to 'cast it away' somehow. Which strangely enough, links in to the fragmented self you talk about below (funny how you seem to know what I'm thinking about before I've mentioned it on the forum ^^).

                    Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                    Jembru, I have two particular books you might be interested in looking at to help with this whole journey...

                    Soul Retrieval by Sandra Ingerman - this is a good introductory text for shamanists who would like to do the sorts of Innerworlds soul retrievals that have become popular in the modern shamanist community.
                    That sounds like it would be very useful in this 'wounded self' work. I have a friend in Yorkshire who does soul retrieval. She's recently qualified as a counsellor and is currently learning hypnosis, because she hopes to be able to take her skills public and maybe make a living from it. We've talked about it a lot in the past (she too has an inner world rather like Rotokia, and believe it or not, most likely not I'm sure, we've actually met one another in our worlds.. or at least we believe we have).

                    Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                    The Personal Totem Pole by Eligio Stephen Gallegos. This is a great little system for anyone who resonates with animal energies to work with.
                    You know, I've actually already done something very similar. In my second (or third, I'm at work so can't check) BoS there is a 7 page section where I journeyed over several weeks to each chakra in turn and identified the totem energy that resonates with each one. This work was done 9 or 10 years ago yet I still remember them very well and don't actually feel like they've changed, besides possibly the crown chakra.

                    Base = blue tailed skink
                    Sacral = Rabbit
                    Solar Plexus = Lion
                    Heart = Dog
                    Throat = Great Horned Owl
                    Third Eye = Cat
                    Crown = Unicorn

                    The Crown may now be a regular white horse, because of the White Horse in my second inner world. I've also wondered if he represents my fetch, because I travel to different parts of my inner world on him, and I speak to him more than any other being there. There is also Fox and Bear and these aren't part of the chakra list either (and Bear is nothing like the descriptions you find when you look her up online or in books (I have the druids oracle, Ted Andrews' totem Animals book, and now the Neolithic Shamanism book which also covers some totem spirits), she's more of a scatterbrain, very playful but easily distracted, like a very big and powerful a puppy), so I haven't quite worked this out yet. All I know is that Fox (who said he isn't part of my soul family, but instead a temporary guide), told me that I already know the animals in my second world, but I've met them in different guises. He wouldn't tell me who corresponds to whom though.

                    I wish I had the luxury of more free time. There is still so much to do, but I have too little time to meditate. There are of course those 20 minute sessions upon waking, but that goes by so quickly and it doesn't feel appropriate to replace these sessions with inner work. I'll get there though, bit by tiny little bit..

                    Thanks once more for such an in-depth post. I do make notes when I read replies in these threads, and I'm adding little bits to my practices all the time.
                    夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Soul Physiology

                      The cheap shortcut to getting Rae'ya into chat is to send a PM when she's on and hope she isn't on a time limit. I've never seen her in chat without an invite. The same option may/may not work with Thal.
                      life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                      Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                      "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                      John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                      "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                      Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Soul Physiology

                        Originally posted by Jembru View Post
                        Throat = Great Horned Owl
                        Make that eagle-owl. I met one today, and realised he was the same size and colour as the owls I'd seen in the vision. I can't imagine their medicine is vastly different to be honest. Eagle-owl is native to Europe and is currently being reintroduced to England. As I'm working with local spirits, it would make more sense that this is the owl that has made itself known to me, rather than a species that has never existed in the British Isles.

                        Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                        The cheap shortcut to getting Rae'ya into chat is to send a PM when she's on and hope she isn't on a time limit. I've never seen her in chat without an invite. The same option may/may not work with Thal.
                        I forgot to reply to this: it's more of an issue on my side actually. I really, really want to get into chat more often. There are so many members who I'd like to know better than PMs alone allow. I just never seem to get the time. I shouldn't be in chatrooms while at work; working on a post bit by bit while I'm between tasks is one thing, but actually giving my attention to a chat would be taking the P and betraying the trust of my employers. At home, I only have until JP goes to bed, because my desk is in the bedroom. We often do things together on my nights off too, and even if he's busy or working late, there's rarely anyone online on this forum around that time.

                        It's not just chat, I have serious difficulties in finding time to practice Japanese on Skype for the same reasons.
                        夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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