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  • #31
    Re: The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?

    Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
    You need to start issuing Flashback Trigger Warnings. Now I have an irresistible urge to wear paisley with a nehru collar...

    Did I awaken a little bit of the summer of love there baby???Be cool fool,it all good,and chill and hit this bad ass dub....(FLASH!!!!!)
    MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

    all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
    NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
    don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




    sigpic

    my new page here,let me know what you think.


    nothing but the shadow of what was

    witchvox
    http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

    Comment


    • #32
      Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

      Originally posted by Medusa View Post
      Yeah. So when you say those words I immediately think 'Shaman'.
      I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not...because I don't think Shamanism with any of them, except *maybe* witchdoctor/ medicine man. Maybe, but not necessairly. Actually with spirit worker and spiritual healer I think Spiritualism, which is Christian...or maybe Edgar Cayce. Maybe hedgerider...but honestly, that's so far out of the lexicon *unless* you are Pagan (and have been for a while) that I can't see random person being familiar with it. And cunning man/woman, I think witch, and witchcraft can overlap with shamanism in terms of beliefs and technique, but doesn't have to.
      “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

      “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
      ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

      "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
      ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

      "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

      Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
      sigpic

      Comment


      • #33
        Re: The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?

        You changed your Aviator...Now how will I know its you???
        MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

        all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
        NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
        don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




        sigpic

        my new page here,let me know what you think.


        nothing but the shadow of what was

        witchvox
        http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

        Comment


        • #34
          Re: The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?

          Originally posted by anunitu View Post
          You changed your Aviator...Now how will I know its you???
          lol...all I did was switch from radium makeup to arsenic facial lotion.
          “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

          “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
          ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

          "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
          ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

          "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

          Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
          sigpic

          Comment


          • #35
            Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

            Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
            I do admit you intrigue me in using elders and reservation's and placing "Shaman" as a word they used. While I have never been on a reservation the Eastern Tsagali (Cherokee) I've know would never use the word Shaman to describe their people or practices. The only Lakota, Dakota, Nakota, Oglala (Sioux nations) I've ever spoken to that used Shaman was a person who wrote books to sell to white people and make a dime off the practice. Pretty much disowned by their elders and heads of those nations. In fact a great many so called Native writer's who use "Shaman" or "Shamanic" or even "Medicine Person" to sell books have been either disowned by their supposed nations and called out for it or lay claim to a nation that can never be proven. Most not even willing to speak to anyone outside of their respective nation about their spirituality and cultural practices as they are all rolled into one. I point out the Tsagali and Lakota as those two nations seem to be the most exploited of the Native American peoples though some other's are hit piece meal like the Zuni and their Fetches.

            As for the argument I'd say it started in academia some years ago as the notion of cultural appropriation became more and more debated. Then crossed over into the debate of exploiting people's of color and robbing their cultural faces and words / concepts. The academic debate probably as early as the late 50's early 60's, the cultural and ethnic debate I started seeing in the late 90's though it seem's to have taken hold in my opinion more in say the last 10 - 15 years.
            So, it a appears to be a problem with the lower 48 tribes, which would make sense for me, since they took the blunt of white expansion. Though I have heard all the different terms I've never met a real tribal person deny Shaman or if the did they went with Medicine or Wise person until at the 2000's and only then was it the younger ones. Though I have heard those of Sioux nation take offense but don't offer up anything more then medicine man/woman. If this has truly become a problem then hiding behind vague names is part of the problem, though I have yet to hear anyone of the tribes offer up a better name to cover the generic term for spirit leader of the tribe that covers most accurately the style of practice.

            sha·man
            ˈSHämən,ˈSHāmən/

            noun
            a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of good and evil spirits, especially among some peoples of northern Asia and North America. Typically such people enter a trance state during a ritual, and practice divination and healing.

            It comes from the tribe in Siberia called Tugusian. Which maybe why the Nee'aaneegn (Tanana area Athabaskan) I grew up with never had a problem with it because the general term comes from the general area.

            Comment


            • #36
              Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

              Originally posted by thalassa View Post
              I can't tell if you are being sarcastic or not...
              Nope. Hey there's that shaman I saw on Shaka Zulu. It all means the general same thing to me. I'm random public lady who watches tv and sees that word connected that way or with Native Americans. I would think most random public people probably think the same thing if asked in a sense of 'shaman, one word, what does it mean?' sort of thing.

              I don't look too deep into it to be honest. Like everyone is a heathen who isn't a Christian. But I know it's not Heathen the practice, it's just saying heathen to get the gist across.
              Satan is my spirit animal

              Comment


              • #37
                Re: The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?

                Heathen became a term used by Christians to describe anyone NOT christian,and it also seems to have become any group that is native rather than "City" state kind of European and then being Heathen,ripe for conquest with the reasoning that the Heathen needed the control of Christians to keep them from being "Lost" (make that enslaved by said Christians)

                Sorry if I kind of drifted there.
                MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                sigpic

                my new page here,let me know what you think.


                nothing but the shadow of what was

                witchvox
                http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                Comment


                • #38
                  Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

                  Originally posted by sionnach View Post
                  I also do not know any Native Americans that would call themselves a Shaman even if they may use similar practices. In fact there are many Native Americans who get angry if you mention Shamans or spirit animals.
                  Boy, have we had completely different experiences.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

                    Originally posted by SonoftheWaters View Post
                    Boy, have we had completely different experiences.
                    Part of the problem is that there seems to be a tendency to lump "Native Americans" all together like they are one homogenous group.

                    ...and its not just Native Americans, but every single cultural group--whether its on the basis of ethnicity, history, socio-economic status, religion, etc (along with plenty of ideas, concepts, and objects that are not cultures). Humans (in general because there are always exceptions) seem to have an overwhelming desire to see things as monothetic, rather than polythetic.

                    I'd blame it on Plato, but I think its an idea that is present in cultures beyond contemporary "Western" culture.
                    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

                    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
                    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

                    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
                    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

                    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

                    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                    sigpic

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

                      Originally posted by SonoftheWaters View Post
                      So, it a appears to be a problem with the lower 48 tribes, which would make sense for me, since they took the blunt of white expansion. Though I have heard all the different terms I've never met a real tribal person deny Shaman or if the did they went with Medicine or Wise person until at the 2000's and only then was it the younger ones. Though I have heard those of Sioux nation take offense but don't offer up anything more then medicine man/woman. If this has truly become a problem then hiding behind vague names is part of the problem, though I have yet to hear anyone of the tribes offer up a better name to cover the generic term for spirit leader of the tribe that covers most accurately the style of practice.

                      sha·man
                      ˈSHämən,ˈSHāmən/

                      noun
                      a person regarded as having access to, and influence in, the world of good and evil spirits, especially among some peoples of northern Asia and North America. Typically such people enter a trance state during a ritual, and practice divination and healing.

                      It comes from the tribe in Siberia called Tugusian. Which maybe why the Nee'aaneegn (Tanana area Athabaskan) I grew up with never had a problem with it because the general term comes from the general area.
                      Not sure about it being mostly the lower nations or not. Most of my interactions have been with member's of the two nations I mentioned above but a few member's of other nations I've spoke to about other things seemed to support those positions. Sort of a red herring but one woman I used to speak to who was Piute, she was full blooded, told me the need to try and keep blood lines was so strong now that her husband was actually from what would have been an enemy nation to hers but those disputes sort of paled. Then it also falls into the cultural appropriation thing that was done and is still done to them as a people by the dominate white culture.

                      One would not use the term "Shaman" at all and only used "Medicine ______" when speaking to people, usually white I was told, who might visit a Pow Wow or maybe a reservation. But then as I was told it usually fell into the jewelry type situation, ie these are made only to be sold to tourist not to other member's of the nation. So you sort of got the story you were hoping to hear from the "Elder" or "Medicine Person" and they catered to your dollar. Yet if you came to them with honor and humility and actually showed you have tried to learn their ways and words then you got a different interaction. Not specifically that you'd get invited to participate or anything until you had been there quite some time and had proved your self or been adopted by some elder or medicine person to vouch for you. Then even all of that didn't mean or imply you'd get involved in the more sacred or hidden rites, ceremonies, rituals, etc.

                      Not sure again about the Canadian or Alaskan nations but I know many of the nations have their own names for those positions. In that regard I equate it to the concept of the Medicine Wheel and how it varies from nation to nation as to color, influences, animals, etc or even the fact that not all nations actually have one. Regardless of whether they actually call it a medicine wheel or have some other name for that concept. I suppose it could also be compared to the actual ceremony that we tend to call a sweat lodge ritual and how one is actually done. Again material, timing, payment, positional responsibilities vary from nation to nation and even from area to area from what I was told.

                      I suppose its a poor analogy usage but when I hear people say "Shaman" I always think of the "Hog" notion. The fact a Hog to some is a pig like creature, to some it's a hand gun, to other's it's a type of name for a motorcycle, for others its a slur for a fat or large person. Many definitions and usages that use comparisons or similarities to describe something but the mental imagery and perception can be so far apart that the initial comparison is more destructive than helpful.
                      I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Re: The term "shamanism"... borrowed or appropriated?

                        So. We all agree on the word!
                        Great.



                        oh edit to add:
                        The issue is that we all have different experiences with hearing that word. Some hear it through their academic studies, some through their personal spiritual studies etc. And some (most) probably learn of the word through media.
                        So who is in charge of teaching the 'proper' use of that word....and if so, what gives you that authority?

                        That's what we really need to get to. We all agree, we all have different understandings of it. Now what?
                        Satan is my spirit animal

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

                          Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                          Not sure about it being mostly the lower nations or not. Most of my interactions have been with member's of the two nations I mentioned above but a few member's of other nations I've spoke to about other things seemed to support those positions. Sort of a red herring but one woman I used to speak to who was Piute, she was full blooded, told me the need to try and keep blood lines was so strong now that her husband was actually from what would have been an enemy nation to hers but those disputes sort of paled. Then it also falls into the cultural appropriation thing that was done and is still done to them as a people by the dominate white culture.

                          One would not use the term "Shaman" at all and only used "Medicine ______" when speaking to people, usually white I was told, who might visit a Pow Wow or maybe a reservation. But then as I was told it usually fell into the jewelry type situation, ie these are made only to be sold to tourist not to other member's of the nation. So you sort of got the story you were hoping to hear from the "Elder" or "Medicine Person" and they catered to your dollar. Yet if you came to them with honor and humility and actually showed you have tried to learn their ways and words then you got a different interaction. Not specifically that you'd get invited to participate or anything until you had been there quite some time and had proved your self or been adopted by some elder or medicine person to vouch for you. Then even all of that didn't mean or imply you'd get involved in the more sacred or hidden rites, ceremonies, rituals, etc.

                          Not sure again about the Canadian or Alaskan nations but I know many of the nations have their own names for those positions. In that regard I equate it to the concept of the Medicine Wheel and how it varies from nation to nation as to color, influences, animals, etc or even the fact that not all nations actually have one. Regardless of whether they actually call it a medicine wheel or have some other name for that concept. I suppose it could also be compared to the actual ceremony that we tend to call a sweat lodge ritual and how one is actually done. Again material, timing, payment, positional responsibilities vary from nation to nation and even from area to area from what I was told.

                          I suppose its a poor analogy usage but when I hear people say "Shaman" I always think of the "Hog" notion. The fact a Hog to some is a pig like creature, to some it's a hand gun, to other's it's a type of name for a motorcycle, for others its a slur for a fat or large person. Many definitions and usages that use comparisons or similarities to describe something but the mental imagery and perception can be so far apart that the initial comparison is more destructive than helpful.
                          The problem is that we still do not have a general term other than Medicine _______ or Shaman. If anyone is upset by this then they are going to have to make the effort to make the change by put out their idea of the correct term for themselves and not use the white culture terminology even when selling to the white culture or all they are doing is accepting the term.

                          My point in this, is that it is their own fault. Instead of correcting the term they accepted it, so now they either have to accept it or fight to correct it because they accepted it to begin with, even if it was to cater to the whites. They have no one to blame but themselves. If you are unwilling to share your knowledge and wisdom with all who come to you, then expect others to give what they deem your knowledge and wisdom to others outside your control.

                          This is one of the reason I hate the keep ye silent rule. While it does apply to things done specifically for you or group it does not apply to ones wisdom and knowledge gained. If they don't like it then they need to share and correct it.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

                            Originally posted by SonoftheWaters View Post
                            The problem is that we still do not have a general term other than Medicine _______ or Shaman. If anyone is upset by this then they are going to have to make the effort to make the change by put out their idea of the correct term for themselves and not use the white culture terminology even when selling to the white culture or all they are doing is accepting the term.

                            My point in this, is that it is their own fault. Instead of correcting the term they accepted it, so now they either have to accept it or fight to correct it because they accepted it to begin with, even if it was to cater to the whites. They have no one to blame but themselves. If you are unwilling to share your knowledge and wisdom with all who come to you, then expect others to give what they deem your knowledge and wisdom to others outside your control.

                            This is one of the reason I hate the keep ye silent rule. While it does apply to things done specifically for you or group it does not apply to ones wisdom and knowledge gained. If they don't like it then they need to share and correct it.
                            Now your crossing into that notion of cultural appropriation and what some call colonialism mentality. We have a right to your knowledge and such, usually by force of power and position, and either give it to us or we will change it to fit our assumptions / presumptions. Placing all the blame and responsibility upon the culture being exploited to either change or give up its identity to appease the group doing the exploiting.

                            That always reminded me of the ugly American sterotype in Europe and Asia. The ugly American who goes to a foreign place and expects them to speak English and change their ways because the ugly American couldn't be bothered to learn anything of the language, people, culture, etc of the place they were visiting. Then when the people try to accommodate the visitor by using a word close to their usage they are still wrong and should be willing to accept that.

                            Man saw that same mentality so many times over the years I served oversea's in the military, especially by tourist to many areas.

                            Regarding wisdom and knowledge I truly believe it depends. SO often, especially for many aboriginal or first nation peoples wisdom and knowledge is so tightly wound into culture and social / ethical beliefs that one is not easily separated or understood without the trappings. It's part of the mystical or spiritual aspects of knowledge and wisdom I suppose, you can read, hear, etc all about it but it means little to nothing unless you live and experience it for yourself. That was one aspect of language that always intrigued and amazed me, many words have more meaning when spoken and / or sung than they ever have when read as the written word or translated into another language. Sad part is far to many people in my opinion expect you to give them everything and put little to nothing into the obtaining of that knowledge and experience.

                            Sorry drifting off the Shamanism discussion is though perhaps this is a major part as well.
                            I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

                              Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                              Now your crossing into that notion of cultural appropriation and what some call colonialism mentality. We have a right to your knowledge and such, usually by force of power and position, and either give it to us or we will change it to fit our assumptions / presumptions. Placing all the blame and responsibility upon the culture being exploited to either change or give up its identity to appease the group doing the exploiting.

                              That always reminded me of the ugly American sterotype in Europe and Asia. The ugly American who goes to a foreign place and expects them to speak English and change their ways because the ugly American couldn't be bothered to learn anything of the language, people, culture, etc of the place they were visiting. Then when the people try to accommodate the visitor by using a word close to their usage they are still wrong and should be willing to accept that.

                              Man saw that same mentality so many times over the years I served oversea's in the military, especially by tourist to many areas.

                              Regarding wisdom and knowledge I truly believe it depends. SO often, especially for many aboriginal or first nation peoples wisdom and knowledge is so tightly wound into culture and social / ethical beliefs that one is not easily separated or understood without the trappings. It's part of the mystical or spiritual aspects of knowledge and wisdom I suppose, you can read, hear, etc all about it but it means little to nothing unless you live and experience it for yourself. That was one aspect of language that always intrigued and amazed me, many words have more meaning when spoken and / or sung than they ever have when read as the written word or translated into another language. Sad part is far to many people in my opinion expect you to give them everything and put little to nothing into the obtaining of that knowledge and experience.

                              Sorry drifting off the Shamanism discussion is though perhaps this is a major part as well.
                              It does have a lot to do with the problem of the term shaman or any culture term, I am not taking this as far as saying give it to all tourist or tourons as local's in New Orleans call them. However, there have been people I know that wanted to know more and have been flat out turned down because they were not already part of the people, one of the only reason I know as much as I do is because I am part Choctaw and this is wrong. This is also no longer the old world were people are trying to take over or control the culture but simply under stand the culture better. There will always be bad apples but by saying you are not one of us so were are not going to help you, you can say or do whatever you want and we will not correct you, is one of the sources of the problems, especially in America were most people have accept the tribes as they are today, even if there is still some prejudices.

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Re: Pagan Pet Peeves

                                Originally posted by SonoftheWaters View Post
                                It does have a lot to do with the problem of the term shaman or any culture term, I am not taking this as far as saying give it to all tourist or tourons as local's in New Orleans call them. However, there have been people I know that wanted to know more and have been flat out turned down because they were not already part of the people, one of the only reason I know as much as I do is because I am part Choctaw and this is wrong. This is also no longer the old world were people are trying to take over or control the culture but simply under stand the culture better. There will always be bad apples but by saying you are not one of us so were are not going to help you, you can say or do whatever you want and we will not correct you, is one of the sources of the problems, especially in America were most people have accept the tribes as they are today, even if there is still some prejudices.
                                I agree it's hard if not out and out difficult to impossible to penetrate some of the barriers. Many times it seem's it's either a deal of your not of the blood, heritage, etc so we can't share. Other times it's a matter of not passing the tests or proving your sincere about actually trying to learn something.

                                In some ways reminds me of my military experience in that there are many who talk about being an Initiated Chief Petty Officer (CPO), speculate on what it means to be an Initiated Chief Petty Officer (CPO), many who speculate and discuss why it's not open and shared but very few who actually become Initiated Chief Petty Officer's (CPO's). So we tend to speak within our own group as we all have a shared military experience, shared military background and shared life experience's regardless of whether we were Airdale, Submarine or Surface. Yet we still chide each other about our respective "Callings" ie calling Surface ships targets, submariners bubbleheads, brown shoe or black shoe Navy, etc.

                                There is a great level and degree of knowledge and history that everyone knows but to us it's entirely different. Yet no matter how much you ask to be shown it you'll not grasp and fully relate to it unless you went through it and have done nothing but live, breathe, eat and yes even die under it. That I find is the issue with many family practices, trad practices and lineage'd mystery practices. People expect them to be open and share but you can't share experiences only talk about them and then the shared reality allows you to relate and even empathize / sympathize with those who are experiencing it themselves.

                                I used to have discussion's about O.B.E.'s (Out of Body Experience) and N.D.E.'s (Near Death Experience) and use it to understand and discuss what it felt like to die. I've had both O.B.E.'s and N.D.E.'s and actually died in my youth so there is some comparison for discussion and relating to the experience. Yet there is also a lot of emotional, cultural, social, ethical, spiritual / religious influences there that can't really be spoken of or explained as to how each impacts upon you. Trying to describe or put it into words doesn't always work to convey the true meaning and depths of the experience. Sometimes living is just as difficult to express as dying when the life style and influences are so strongly tied to culture, social, ethical, ethnic, etc bindings.

                                I personally think part of the issue surrounding Native American beliefs is so much has been falsely wrapped about the notion of the noble savage and this presumed great pagan like connection to the natural world. Yet that presumption is often severely distorted by both historical misinformation and a certain rose colored tint upon everything. It's like my ancestry is mountain people even back into our ancestry into the highlands of Scotland an such. So how do I convey that via words that another can understand and relate to with all the baggage that accompanies it?

                                It's all history, knowledge, experience and the stuff that makes it up. Yet if I talk about it all you get are words without any of the emotional and psychological triggers, images and stimulus that goes with it to make it something. That I think is what people never really grasp when they come to anything and say tell me, show me, open it up to me or share it with me.

                                Consider the so called Sin Eater and how they are sometimes equated to some Shamanic practices. To know both the hatred, disgust and antisocial attitude towards them can not be conveyed without all the emotional imagery and feelings the very idea brings upon people associated with it. Failing to realize that by consuming the sins and and such of the spirit and body they also serve the capacity of psychopomps and Spirit Keepers aiding the spirit to separate from its earthly garb, at times act as a Spirit Keeper in allowing the sins of the flesh as it were to be washed away and removed while the spirit itself unburdens itself.

                                Sorry off topic again.
                                I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

                                Comment

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