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Thread: But is it meat?

  1. #21
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    Re: But is it meat?

    Not that I've done any research or anything, but I think eventually lab grown meat would be cheaper. Startup costs would be bad, but after they know what they're doing and have a system, the costs would go down. Meat grown in a lab wouldn't require nearly the support that full grown animals do, I would think.

    I just remember when those hybrid cars first started to come out and so many people said they wouldn't catch on because they were so expensive at the time...

    Just my humble uninformed opinion


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    Sr. Member Ouranos Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Re: But is it meat?

    Quote Originally Posted by B. de Corbin View Post
    This won't matter to health vegetarians or vegans, but to vegetarians and/or vegans who are against the slaughter of animals, would you consider meat grown in a lab as still off limits?


    What's Behind the Search for Lab-Grown Meat (Op-Ed)

    Thanks for introducing an interesting topic. I became vegan for ethical reasons - and, on those grounds, I might be willing to try eating lab-meat if I felt I could trust the companies that made it and the regulators that oversee them. However, I've also come to enjoy the health benefits of my diet - and I don't believe lab-meat could reproduce them (not, at least, without good data supporting that conclusion).


    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsFriend View Post
    We humans are omnivores and meat is a part of our natural diet. Lab grown muscle is grown from animal DNA so in the strictest sense it is animal flesh. There is the fact that it was never controlled by or part of a whole animal but it began as a cell from an animal.


    [...]

    Is it your belief that the first humans ate meat? Is it your belief that human health depends upon eating meat?


    Quote Originally Posted by Bartmanhomer View Post
    I agree. Without meat our energy will be depleted.

    How so? Why?


    Quote Originally Posted by anunitu View Post
    One very important point is we really could use the land used to raise cattle for other growth of protein. It is also said that the output from the cattle is an environmental issue. Lab grown eat might help with land use.


    - - - Updated - - -


    Also the factory farm model is NOT working well.

    I think you make one of the most important points of the thread. This is a much more serious problem than most of us think. The UN reports, for instance, that eating meat produces more carbon dioxide, methane, nitrous oxide, and other GHGs than transportation and industry combined. If we all stopped eating meat, it would actually help the planet more than if we all gave up private transport (although that would help, too).


    Quote Originally Posted by Bjorn View Post
    As a carnivore, I am simply glad that there are more ways to ingest 'meat.'


    P.S. vegetarians spend all day trying to mimic meat so you'd think they'd be delighted that someone went through the trouble of saving them the effort of wanting to eat meat without eating it. 'Burgers,' pfeh.


    :P

    If you're a carnivore, then you must be experiencing multiple, serious mutations. Are you sure you understand the physiological features that make an animal a carnivore? Do you think, perhaps, that being carnivorous is a choice rather than an inherent trait?


    Quote Originally Posted by thalassa View Post
    It depends on resources.


    [...]Killing isn't what is unethical (if killing is unethical, than eating just about anything other than fruits and nuts/seeds is unethical...and that is not a viable diet), its the huge waste of natural resources that comes with industrial scale livestock production. And unless vat meat will be a game changer there, its just as unethical.

    What makes you think a raw foods diet is not viable?


    Killing as ethical or unethical is a matter of context. Even though I'm vegan, I have to take life in order to live. I choose to take the lives of organisms that don't have nerve endings. I have to kill, but my diet is more ethical than the diet of a meat eater because I don’t cause unnecessary pain in order to eat.
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    Re: But is it meat?

    It is my belief that Homo sapiens have always had meat diets. As for the first humans I believe that Australopithecus ate meat. They were the precursor of the Homo genus. We have teeth that evolved for the consumption of meat. As early humans were hunter/gatherers meat was an essential part of their diet. we have "eye" teeth - remnants of "canines" for piercing tissues. We have the front teeth for cutting meat and molars for grinding vegetables and meat.
    Do I think meat is mandatory for good health ... no but you have to eat ten times the weight of vegetables to match the protein in meat. That is why we domesticated animals. You feed herbivores the vegetation and let their anatomy convert that plant matter to protein and use that for food. We don't have the gut to render grasses and high fiber plants into food. Our biology is best at digesting proteins found in meat. Chimps eat leaves and other plants that we have no way to digest and they also eat meat. Some even eat other simians.
    It is thought that switching to a primary diet of meat and learning to cook it is what allowed the muscles in our jaws to get smaller and allowed the head to grow larger to house larger brains. Hunting increased our communication skills so we could hunt in groups. We learned to communicate and then learned to write the sounds down so it could be understood by the generations that followed.

    I believe we have evolved to eat meat and specifically cooked meat. If, like wolves we ate the organs of animals we would have little need for plants at all. But I like plants. I like the fruits, berries, and melons as much as I like brussel sprouts, spinach, carrots, cauliflower, peas, and beans. I also like grains (where would we be without bread?)

    We are omnivores and we have the ultimate variety of foods available to us. What would life be without the bacon in a BLT? Meat, vegetables, fruit and grains in a single source. I have eaten all kinds of things and I would eat whatever was available to survive but it would be a lot easier if meat is involved.

  4. #24
    lady sings the blues DanieMarie's Avatar
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    Re: But is it meat?

    Sometimes, I think both sides of the meat debate miss the point entirely. Vegans would like to see everyone give up meat entirely, whereas most omnivores seem entirely unwilling to give up meat. However, the issue of the environmental impact of meat is not going to go away, and most people will probably not give up meat entirely (myself included, for reasons I've already exhausted in other threads on this topic).

    Yes, people have always included meat in their diets, more or less, but the issue today isn't the fact that people eat meat, but that people eat a LOT of meat. Unless you were incredibly wealthy, there is no way you had that much meat in your diet prior to the 20th century. Most people today not only eat meat daily, but exceed their daily recommended intake of the stuff. Plus, they waste meat (and other food) to unbelievable levels. Waste doesn't just take place at home, but on the industrial level. Meat is thrown away all the time in supermarkets and fast food restaurants. We just produce far more than we can possibly eat, even at the levels we eat it. Couple all of that overconsumption and waste with a growing global population with high numbers in countries that are starting to enjoy far more meat than they used to and we get to where we are today.

    We have to realize that, although we do not have to give up meat entirely, we do need to be MUCH MUCH more realistic about our consumption. Coupled with other sources of protein (which are numerous, especially if you don't have my allergies to beans and legumes), you don't really need all that much meat per day. You don't even need meat every day to be healthy. If everyone who didn't want to give up meat cut back their consumption and limited themselves to sustainable sources, it would make leaps and bounds in terms of environmental impact. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing deal.

    I also agree that we should eat more organs. However, eating organs would NOT cut out the need for meat. We evolved to be omnivores, not carnivores. There are several proteins, minerals, vitamins, and fibers in fruits and vegetables that we simply cannot get from meat.

    I think that lab-grown meat can have a place in all of this, but at the moment, it's too expensive to be feasible. Lab-grown meat is also not without its own problems. To produce it on a massive scale, it would require a lot of fossil fuels, and transporting and storing the stuff in supermarkets is also an issue (it's not exactly something you could feasibly produce on a small local scale).

    The solution from an environmental standpoint is pretty easy. Eat less meat, eat more vegetables. Your health and your wallet will thank you.

    I'll stand by this personally. I joined a local produce cooperative a few weeks ago and have been upping my foraging attempts. Because of this, I have an abundant supply of fruits and vegetables. In order to eat them all, I mostly eat fruits and vegetables, with some grains thrown in. I still eat meat, but I just don't have room in my budget or my stomach for a lot of it. I've been healthier and happier, and I now manage to eat an (almost) entirely locally sourced diet on a budget. I threw the "almost" in there because I still occasionally buy things like olive oil, balsamic vinegar, and the odd banana and avocado from other countries.

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    Re: But is it meat?

    Balance is the key to what is best for us. That balance must appear in our lives as a whole. I eat less than eight ounces of meat a day - normally less than six ounces. I eat a lot more veggies and fruit than I do meat. The human body can fabricate most of the protein it needs but meat supplies all the proteins that the body can't make. We also need a certain amount of fat, fiber and carbohydrates to maintain our health and energy. Go too far in any direction and you loose the balance and your health.

  6. #26
    Sr. Member Ouranos Ouroboros's Avatar
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    Re: But is it meat?

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsFriend View Post
    It is my belief that Homo sapiens have always had meat diets. As for the first humans I believe that Australopithecus ate meat. They were the precursor of the Homo genus. We have teeth that evolved for the consumption of meat. As early humans were hunter/gatherers meat was an essential part of their diet. we have "eye" teeth - remnants of "canines" for piercing tissues. We have the front teeth for cutting meat and molars for grinding vegetables and meat.
    Do I think meat is mandatory for good health ... no but you have to eat ten times the weight of vegetables to match the protein in meat. That is why we domesticated animals. You feed herbivores the vegetation and let their anatomy convert that plant matter to protein and use that for food. We don't have the gut to render grasses and high fiber plants into food. Our biology is best at digesting proteins found in meat. Chimps eat leaves and other plants that we have no way to digest and they also eat meat. Some even eat other simians.
    It is thought that switching to a primary diet of meat and learning to cook it is what allowed the muscles in our jaws to get smaller and allowed the head to grow larger to house larger brains. Hunting increased our communication skills so we could hunt in groups. We learned to communicate and then learned to write the sounds down so it could be understood by the generations that followed.

    I believe we have evolved to eat meat and specifically cooked meat. If, like wolves we ate the organs of animals we would have little need for plants at all. But I like plants. I like the fruits, berries, and melons as much as I like brussel sprouts, spinach, carrots, cauliflower, peas, and beans. I also like grains (where would we be without bread?)

    We are omnivores and we have the ultimate variety of foods available to us. What would life be without the bacon in a BLT? Meat, vegetables, fruit and grains in a single source. I have eaten all kinds of things and I would eat whatever was available to survive but it would be a lot easier if meat is involved.
    Quote Originally Posted by DragonsFriend View Post
    Balance is the key to what is best for us. That balance must appear in our lives as a whole. I eat less than eight ounces of meat a day - normally less than six ounces. I eat a lot more veggies and fruit than I do meat. The human body can fabricate most of the protein it needs but meat supplies all the proteins that the body can't make. We also need a certain amount of fat, fiber and carbohydrates to maintain our health and energy. Go too far in any direction and you loose the balance and your health.
    Quote Originally Posted by DanieMarie View Post
    Sometimes, I think both sides of the meat debate miss the point entirely. Vegans would like to see everyone give up meat entirely, whereas most omnivores seem entirely unwilling to give up meat. However, the issue of the environmental impact of meat is not going to go away, and most people will probably not give up meat entirely (myself included, for reasons I've already exhausted in other threads on this topic).

    Yes, people have always included meat in their diets, more or less, but the issue today isn't the fact that people eat meat, but that people eat a LOT of meat. Unless you were incredibly wealthy, there is no way you had that much meat in your diet prior to the 20th century. Most people today not only eat meat daily, but exceed their daily recommended intake of the stuff. Plus, they waste meat (and other food) to unbelievable levels. Waste doesn't just take place at home, but on the industrial level. Meat is thrown away all the time in supermarkets and fast food restaurants. We just produce far more than we can possibly eat, even at the levels we eat it. Couple all of that overconsumption and waste with a growing global population with high numbers in countries that are starting to enjoy far more meat than they used to and we get to where we are today.

    We have to realize that, although we do not have to give up meat entirely, we do need to be MUCH MUCH more realistic about our consumption. Coupled with other sources of protein (which are numerous, especially if you don't have my allergies to beans and legumes), you don't really need all that much meat per day. You don't even need meat every day to be healthy. If everyone who didn't want to give up meat cut back their consumption and limited themselves to sustainable sources, it would make leaps and bounds in terms of environmental impact. It doesn't have to be an all or nothing deal.

    I also agree that we should eat more organs. However, eating organs would NOT cut out the need for meat. We evolved to be omnivores, not carnivores. There are several proteins, minerals, vitamins, and fibers in fruits and vegetables that we simply cannot get from meat.

    I think that lab-grown meat can have a place in all of this, but at the moment, it's too expensive to be feasible. Lab-grown meat is also not without its own problems. To produce it on a massive scale, it would require a lot of fossil fuels, and transporting and storing the stuff in supermarkets is also an issue (it's not exactly something you could feasibly produce on a small local scale).

    The solution from an environmental standpoint is pretty easy. Eat less meat, eat more vegetables. Your health and your wallet will thank you.

    I'll stand by this personally. I joined a local produce cooperative a few weeks ago and have been upping my foraging attempts. Because of this, I have an abundant supply of fruits and vegetables. In order to eat them all, I mostly eat fruits and vegetables, with some grains thrown in. I still eat meat, but I just don't have room in my budget or my stomach for a lot of it. I've been healthier and happier, and I now manage to eat an (almost) entirely locally sourced diet on a budget. I threw the "almost" in there because I still occasionally buy things like olive oil, balsamic vinegar, and the odd banana and avocado from other countries.
    Wow! You reminded me how much I like this site; it's great to get an intelligent answer instead of the typical "We hate you for being vegan, and we don't need reasons" type of response I often get.


    DragonsFriend, I think you make very interesting points. I'm willing to believe some of what you say - for instance, I believe expanding their diet to include meat did help early humans to expand into new territory and to develop some new (and occasionally useful) agricultural techniques. I don't believe we should eat meat now only because it helped our ancestors during a certain critical period in our history (especially when you consider average human life-span during that period), but you make a valid point about human evolution.


    At the same time, I feel it's possible that you've been misinformed on some points. I doubt it's your fault, however; the meat industry produces a lot of money, and the corporations that supply it don't want you to know what's best for your health - they want you to know what's best for their bottom line. A lot of very bad science comes out of the meat industry, which is usually the source of the arguments that we need meat to get necessary amino acids and proteins, that humans ate meat before they invented cooking, that meat has more or better proteins than non-meat foods, that eating meat doesn’t lower average life-span, etc. A lot of it (I think, at least) looks like good science until you realize who paid the scientists (or otherwise influenced them) and who benefits from the aforementioned beliefs.


    I also agree with you about the necessity of balance - but I don’t feel behavior that condones causing unnecessary pain and other torment is part of a balanced life. I believe that the harvesting of meat is an unbalanced behavior.


    DanieMarie, I can understand your point of view in general, but I differ on some specifics. In particular, I disagree that vegetarians and vegans should desist in trying to persuade others not to eat meat. It isn't at all necessary to eat meat (there's actually nothing that meat provides that we can't get elsewhere), and the impact of producing meat is horrible for our planet (a planet that we all share, regardless of diet). For me, taking the utmost reverence for the planet and its creatures is a central part of my spirituality.


    Here are some articles that I hope you will both investigate. I also encourage you to consider adapting a vegetarian or vegan diet. Yes, I hope you'll do so because of the facts, but I also think you'll feel better - both now and in the long term. The cessation of meat-eating is one of the two best things I've ever done for my body (according to how I feel and to several physicians whose intelligence and willingness to keep up with current research I admire) - with the second being starting a practice of daily meditation. We also decided to raise our son* without meat in his diet (although he was given a choice to eat meat if he wanted starting at age two - though he isn’t interested). According to his physicians, he is very much healthier than the average child of his age; yes, some of that has to do with things like limiting his intake of refined sugars - things that meat-eaters can also do - but his doctors also feel that his eating no meat is very good for him.


    Thank you for your comments; I'd love to see the sources from which you got your information, but I think your remarks are definitely worth reading even without evidence. Many blessings to you both!


    * I’m speaking only of my human son. Our cats (one son and two daughters) eat meat on a regular basis because they really are carnivores and their bodies really do need it. But that’s probably a topic for a different thread…


    http://michaelbluejay.com/veg/natural.html


    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jessic...b_1882372.html


    http://healthfree.com/nutritional_power_myth.html


    http://www.collective-evolution.com/...eat-your-meat/


    http://www.pnas.org/content/97/25/13506.full
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    Bronze Member magusphredde's Avatar
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    Re: But is it meat?

    Simple solution ... Decrease the world population and you decrease the world food requirements across the board ,,, Not just meats but grains, fish, etc ...

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    Re: But is it meat?

    I think people are getting sidetracked. This topic is about lab grown meat, NOT vegan vs carni/omnivore. And, no, I will NOT invite people to start a new topic on vegan vs carni/omnivore. The last half dozen attempts ended in hurt feelings, time-outs, and overall upset. It's not worth anyone's time and effort anymore to continue this line of conversation in public. Take it to PM or Off-Site and let the original topic continue. Offenders of this official request will be infracted and depending on severity of offense, more drastic measures may be taken. This is the only warning that will be issued in this thread.
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    Re: But is it meat?

    Dontcha just love them red eyes of hers? ... And how she quotes Hoban Washburne ...

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    Re: But is it meat?

    Quote Originally Posted by B. de Corbin View Post
    This won't matter to health vegetarians or vegans, but to vegetarians and/or vegans who are against the slaughter of animals, would you consider meat grown in a lab as still off limits?

    What's Behind the Search for Lab-Grown Meat (Op-Ed)

    When I was a vegetarian, it was purely for environmental reasons. As such, I (very occasionally) made exceptions for hunted meat and for fishing. When I stopped being a vegetarian, it was for health reasons, and when it comes to what I feed my family, its local and sustainably raised meat.

    IMO (as I said before) it only makes sense if it uses less resources (which only has a slight bearing on cost) than actual animal meat. And in that regard, there are lots of variables (like feed lots vs *real* free range, etc).
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

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