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    Pagan cultural appropriation

    (first. I can't believe I'm posting in here! Everything is so wispy and green and full of incense )

    Anyways, while browsing some pagan stuff, I stumbled upon something I haven't seen posted here. Pagan appropriation. You know. Lemme wear this pentacle. Oh, I want to put this goddess on my altar but I'm not even a pagan! I thought about doing some druid chants just to feel calm. Stuff like that. Is it possible to have pagan appropriation? How do you feel when you find others (other pagans who do not share your belief or just complete outsiders of different or non faiths) use your symbols and chants and what not for their own use?
    Satan is my spirit animal

    #2
    Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

    There's a whole pagan tradition that revels in the appropriation of pagan ideas.... Eclecticism.

    Appropriation is a part of life, and so it should be. We all gain inspiration from the ideas, thoughts and traditions of others. Every single one of us is guilty of appropriating SOMETHING when it comes to our personal spiritual paths.

    I think where appropriation becomes a problem is when it's not done respectfully, or when it causes harm to an extant indigenous culture (which is the argument that has been argued to death in neoshamanic circles). Personally I think it's okay to adopt a practice from say... a particular Native American tradition... as long as you don't call it by the name they call it by, you don't infer that you are practicing their tradition, and you don't advertise yourself as being an expert of their version of the practice. Or to use the above example... I think you can do as many druid chants as you like, but that doesn't make you a Druid and if you claim to be a Druid or go around telling people you're an expert on druid chants... well that's disrespectful appropriation and I'm not going to think that you're someone I can respect.

    Comment


      #3
      Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

      Its a natural outgrowth of cultural evolution...and while culture (including language, religion, technology) evolves in a way that is similar to biological Evolution, there are things that are quite different as well--cultural borrowing, intentionally anti-mainstream sub-cultures, etc. Honestly, there's so much overlap, to say that anything is truly authentic to any group is a big fat lie we tell ourselves to make us feel special. Looking around and getting inspired by what we see around us and making sh*t is what people do. Its what makes us human and what sets us apart from other animals. To be offended by someone that sees what I do or what I am inspired by and uses it as their inspiration is rediculous. And to expect the world to keep copious footnotes is unrealistic.
      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
      sigpic

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        #4
        Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

        Mental tools.

        If they work, use them.

        (I wonder who the hammer was appropriated from?)
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

          Can I haz magic and hamburgers?..We cats are the ones you always try to copy...Hissssssssss
          MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

          all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
          NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
          don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




          sigpic

          my new page here,let me know what you think.


          nothing but the shadow of what was

          witchvox
          http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

            Nah man. Steal what you want from me. At the centre of it all...I am nothing.


            Mostly art.

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

              Rae'ya and/or Thalassa and I talked about this... it's fine in the proper context.

              For example, I'm not Hindu, but if I recite the Gāyatrī Mantra:

              oṃ bhūr bhuvaḥ svaḥ



              (translation:"We meditate on the glory of that Being who has produced this universe; may He enlighten our minds") I'm praising the Sun. The rub is that in Hinduism the Sun is male: is male singular genitive ("of the god"), so there's the catch; in Heathenry the Sun is female. Is it a big deal? I don't know.

              Or I may say a prayer (or mantra) to Narasiṁha, an avatar of Vishnu, who represents divine protection of a devotee, and divine justice against one who would harm that devotee, i.e. "God protects". Or the Mahāmṛtyuṃjaya Mantra "Great Death-conquering Mantra" of Shiva:

              oṃ tryambakam yajāmahe sugandhim puṣti-vardhanam
              urvārukam-iva bandhanā mṛtyormukṣīya māmṛtāat

              "We worship the Three-eyed Lord (Shiva's internal 3rd eye) Who is fragrant and Who nourishes and nurtures all beings. As the ripened cucumber (with the intervention of the gardener) is freed from its bondage (to the vine), may He (Shiva) liberate us from death for the sake of immortality."

              Having been pedantic enough, suffice to say there are a whole bunch of other prayers and mantras to the Hindu deities that I don't think conflict with my belief in the Norse deities or worldview. OK, some may be a stretch, but hey, if it works... The reason is that being a 98% hard polytheist who understands that the gods are not omniscient, omnipotent or omnipresent, the Hindu deities are deities that can help me, and whom I am attracted to. And frankly I need all the help I can get.

              But again, I call myself Heathen, not Hindu because I pick and choose from Hinduism that which I believe and most importantly feel works for me. And having just taken a pain pill for my back, I have no flippin' idea if any of that made any sense... 6 months from now I'll look back at this and say "wut da fook!?" :rofl:

              So there ya have it... labels suck.

              Oh, and there's this... http://www.patheos.com/blogs/thezenp...ods-this-place
              śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
              śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

                Originally posted by Thorbjorn View Post
                The rub is that in Hinduism the Sun is male ... in Heathenry the Sun is female. Is it a big deal? I don't know.
                In the Orphic Hymn, the Moon is addressed as "female and male". The Greeks thought of Selene as a Goddess, but they knew that just across the Aegean Men was a God. It's a bit like the different aspects of the Gods (not a Heathen thing, of course): worshiping Zeus Meilichios is not the same as worshiping Zeus Horios.

                If you're a pagan, you obviously accept all Gods, though you don't worship them all. It needs to be done with respect though. I once picked up an encyclopedia of Goddesses in the library, opened it, and read "Hecate is a crone..." I put it back, muttering "#%* Wiccan -- serve you right if she sets her dogs on you."

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

                  All the way back to the earliest recorded religion and spirituality there has always been multiple attributes of deity. It is not unusual for deity to have male and female attributes. The "Air deities" those primordial creation gods are commonly referred to as being male, female, neuter, all and none at the same time. The Sumerian Anki and the Hebrew El are both referred to as multi-gendered and also without gender. El-ohim is translated as "the many faces" of El. There are many examples in many traditions of "trans-gendered deity. Inanna is a "Moon" Goddess but Nanna is a Moon God and nanna is the full moon. The difference in the two names is nothing more than a gender change. They are both aspects of the same deity.
                  The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
                  I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

                    Originally posted by DavidMcCann View Post
                    If you're a pagan, you obviously accept all Gods
                    Is that a dictionary definition and dogmatic requirement of being pagan? Because I genuinely believe the Judeo-Christian god is made up.
                    I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
                    Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
                    But that day you know I left my money
                    And I thought of you only
                    All that copper glowing fine

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

                      Even in pre-Christian writings of the Bible and in the possible "true" translations of the original text (based from a scholarly book I read, and can provide the source of it if asked, or at least the name of the book), the Judeo-Christian God is in fact two deities, one male and one female.

                      Originally posted by Briton View Post
                      Is that a dictionary definition and dogmatic requirement of being pagan? Because I genuinely believe the Judeo-Christian god is made up.
                      As for this, I think this is a rather loaded statement, possibly borne from past disenchantment and frustration with said religions. At the end of the day, anyone can state that anyone's gods are "made up", as the anthropological statements regarding religion is that they were all formed out of a need to explain the things they could not explain, and to be used as a basis of what was considered moral and just in the culture.

                      A guy's fields are starting to wither and die because of no water, and so he gets angry and begins to rant and rave about how he's going to die soon as well because of it. In his frustration, he falls to his knees, crying, until he calms down. The next day, a rainstorm appears and the water from which saves his crops and thus his life. He doesn't know anything about clouds and weather patterns and evaporation, or any of that scientific stuff. All he knows is that he got on his knees, vented his woes, and then the rains came. Therefore, "something" must have heard him, and sent him the rain. Thus, a god is born, and so the next time he needs something, he repeats the process and "invents" prayer. He just made up a god.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

                        If you look at the definitions of deity instead of the names you will find that the creator(s) are always the same. The Christian God is the same God that the Hebrews called El, the Sumerians called Anki, and all throughout religions world wide. The Jews got around the multitude of gods by incorporating "the many attributes" of god. "Elohim" is multi-gendered, plural, genderless proper noun for the "many faces" of God. The Christians have left that part out but theirs is still the creator. The Sumerians, and most early pagan faiths accepted the definitions and foreign names were just different names for the same deity.
                        Your personal view of God is different than mine but I am willing to accept that is how you connect to the same deities that I have but see differently.
                        The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
                        I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

                          Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                          Is it possible to have pagan appropriation? How do you feel when you find others (other pagans who do not share your belief or just complete outsiders of different or non faiths) use your symbols and chants and what not for their own use?






                          Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                          I think where appropriation becomes a problem is when it's not done respectfully, or when it causes harm to an extant indigenous culture (which is the argument that has been argued to death in neoshamanic circles).



                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

                            Originally posted by Briton View Post
                            Is that a dictionary definition and dogmatic requirement of being pagan? Because I genuinely believe the Judeo-Christian god is made up.
                            IMO, all gods are made up. That doesn't make them or the relationships the followers have with them any less real.
                            Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                            sigpic

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

                              Unfortunately for us, "just not right for you" is not how the Christian deity supposedly works and I'm damned because of it. To me that just sounds like a manipulative political system using an all powerful deity (who has to be talked around on more than one occasion by a mere mortal) as a convenient blackmail. The Christian story is, however, riddled with holes. It's neither credible from a scriptural nor naturalistic point of view.
                              I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
                              Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
                              But that day you know I left my money
                              And I thought of you only
                              All that copper glowing fine

                              Comment

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