Pagan cultural appropriation

[anunitu]

Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

I hate this "cultural appropriation" BS. I feel like people get too offended too easily these days. There's no possible way to go throughout life without "appropriating" something. If I really really wanted to nit pick appropriation about anything, trust me I could. I would probably go on an entire rant about how modern culture is influenced by Ancient Rome and then use that to say our culture is based off of the "cultural appropriation" of Ancient Rome.

Good to see you online Serria,been a little while.

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

My practice from the very beginning has been a hodge podge gathering of things from one place or another. When I saw myself as Wiccan, I called upon Freya and Cernunnos, Osiris and The Morrigan. I changed words in Christian prayers to better suit my beliefs, while not entirely abandoning the religion in which I was brought up. As time went on, as I discovered more and more what I truly believed in, I began to streamline all those things that I had taken from here, there, and everywhere as I was adapting, growing, and evolving along with my faith.

These days, I call myself a follower of the Northern Traditions, but even within that, I know that there are still remnants of that "pick-mix" history that I began with. My gods are those of the Aesir, Vanir, and Rokkr, my magical practices revolve around seidr, galdr, and the runes, but within those generalities, the specifics are drawn from many sources. I combine herbalism with bindrunes, American cultural holidays with NT ideas, and many other blendings of culture and experience.

For me, it has been, and still is, a journey of experimentation and exploration, of finding what fits my view of the cosmos and what simply feels right. If chanting your galdr while entering into a state to experience the aboriginal Dreaming works for you, who am I to nay say?

[Norse_Angel]

Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

I've met many a few Scandinavians who wear Thor's hammer around their neck for the soul reason of historical country pride. I have never been offended by these instances.

[thalassa]

Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

As for the mixing and matching of gods and goddesses I find this hard to understand. I have seen some collect gods and goddesses as if it were a pokemon card collection pick and choosing what they like. A religion and belief seems more complex than just a collection of gods and goddesses. Each cultural religion has more that just gods and goddesses representing it. The myths and folklore have a connection that extends out beyond individual gods and goddesses which includes a code of ethics, moral teachings and complex beliefs that interconnect the religion of a particular culture in an interwoven pattern.
So I can understand adopting ideas or practices and integrating them into ones beliefs and there is historic evidence for this in the ancient pagan world. I find it more difficult to adopt entire belief systems of a different culture or take fragments of many cultures and place them together but of course this is my view from my limited perspective.

Religion is about relationship. For some people, that is a relationship with their heritage and the culture where their heritage originates. For some people, that is a relationship with a specific god or gods, through the lens of the culture and religion in which those gods were worshipped. For some people, that is a relationship with their ancestors and the culture they belonged to. But for others, the relationship is just with the gods that they feel touched by...and those gods may not have approaced them in the context of their originating culture...and maybe they are from different cultures. For others, maybe their ancestors come from many cultures--particularly in countries where colonialism occured, this would be quite common. For others, it may be a heritage that they were raised near--I have a friend that lived her formative years in West Africa, is it any surprise that (though she's mostly Native American) that she worships Yemaya?

Relationship is individual. And relationship is informed by one's biases. If you view religion to be a product of culture and heritage, it makes sense that your religion would be connected to that. But not everyone feels that way. Some people find their bond elsewhere. I am more interested in the land. My religion is based on building a relationship with the land. Unfortunately, very little is known about the religion of the original inhabitants of where I live, so I look to other traditions for inspiration--those with similar climates and ecosystems are where I have started. And the land doesn't care about cultural integrity or one's gods matching one's ritual's historical origin.

[sionnach]

Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

But for others, the relationship is just with the gods that they feel touched by...and those gods may not have approaced them in the context of their originating culture...and maybe they are from different cultures. For others, maybe their ancestors come from many cultures--particularly in countries where colonialism occured, this would be quite common. For others, it may be a heritage that they were raised near--I have a friend that lived her formative years in West Africa, is it any surprise that (though she's mostly Native American) that she worships Yemaya?

I don't quite understand when you say people feel they have been touched by or approached by gods {goddesses also I presume}. Is it that they are identifying with the characteristics of that god or are they really being contacted by other gods and if so how are these gods presenting themselves?

In cultural appropriation I think the greatest concern is when someone becomes interested in a religion that they have not had much experience with, learn what the think is the religion then present themselves as an authority of that religion. In the case of a native American growing up in Africa exposed to the religion they are surrounded and identifying with that religion rather than a native American religion they have genetic roots in but no experience is not an issue. It is not appropriation since she has experience and spiritual connection with the African religion.

[Maria de Luna]

Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

I don't quite understand when you say people feel they have been touched by or approached by gods {goddesses also I presume}. Is it that they are identifying with the characteristics of that god or are they really being contacted by other gods and if so how are these gods presenting themselves?

I can't answer this myself, but I imagine it's a very personal experience. I've heard stories of being contacted during dreams or meditation. I have not had this happen to myself so I'm not an authority, but if someone truly feels touched by or commanded by a deity, if it doesn't hurt anyone I tend to let them have that profound feeling.

i feel like as long as someone does due diligence and respects the traditions of the people their gods or beliefs come from, and as long as their actions come from a place of true respect, I have a hard time calling them on cultural appropriation.

[RowanModig]

Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

That sounds like what my eclectic pagan friends do but I guess it could be appropriation. I'm not horribly offended when someone wants to use a chant or crystals or has a goddess statue as long as they aren't claiming to be something that they're not. If they're genuinely interested in getting into paganism or Wicca then I'll talk to them about it, and I love when people ask questions of me. I do tend to take issue when someone claims to be Pagan and can't tell me what a Pagan actually is, however. I think if you're going to appropriate another culture then you should at least educate yourself on the culture you're trying to appropriate.

[thalassa]

Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

I don't quite understand when you say people feel they have been touched by or approached by gods {goddesses also I presume}. Is it that they are identifying with the characteristics of that god or are they really being contacted by other gods and if so how are these gods presenting themselves?

You would have to ask them as individuals. I've met lots of Pagans. Some of them believe that they are literally in contact with their deities. They experience them in dreams, meditation, in ritual. They are invoked, evoked, and personally experienced. Other people, yeah, they probably identify with the characteristics of that god. That is what I do. The gods I worship are chosen for what they represent to their originating culture and religion and become a representative of that domain in my culture and religion. Depending on how one believes in the gods, its either not entirely one sided, or its not entirely a conscious choice. I've had gods that don't work out. And I've had gods that I would *never* think would work out make their way into my rituals.

Think about it this way. How did you decide what your favorite color was? Your favorite food? What kind of style you like? Your favorite music? You just do... Were those conscious decisions? Did you sit around and thing...hmmm...blue really evokes *calm* to me, maybe I should surround myself with blue... Or did you just like it? Maybe its because you were raised with it, but maybe not. I love sushi. I never had sushi as a kid. In fact, only once had I eaten tuna that wasn't in a can before I started buying my own groceries...and it was the most perfectly grilled blackened tuna steak I've ever had in my entire life. I ate it to be polite on a trip to visit my cousin. I thought I hated tuna....turns out, I just hated tuna in a can in tuna salad. Now, I freaking eat tuna raw. I never thought about it, I just liked it.

Most people don't typically sit down and make a rational and conscious decision that "I'm going to worship this god because its part of my biological or cultural heritage". They do it because they are attracted to it (for whatever reason--which could be that they are of _________ heritage or grew up with _________ mythology as bedtime stories or met a girl once that they really liked that was ________) and now that they've been exposed to it, they like it. And then they rationalize the experience afterwards.

I've had 20+ years for my path to evolve. I've been exposed to lots of traditions and participated in lots of traditions rituals. In the military, you don't get to be picky about what group you hang with to do your religion. Its one pan-Pagan group or too bad, so sad, you are on your own. There's no where else to go on a tin can in the middle of the ocean...no driving to the next town to see what they've got. You suck it up and make it work...and learn to appreciate each other's traditions even if they don't float your spiritual boat. I've done blots with Wiccans, Heathens, atheists, Christo-Pagans, and Druids, led circles that included a Catholic priest (he was the sponsor for our group as one of our onboard chaplains) with those same Wiccans, Heathens, atheists, Christo-Pagans, and Druids, and even been part of a Lesser Banishing Ritual that called quarters with famous pirates.

In cultural appropriation I think the greatest concern is when someone becomes interested in a religion that they have not had much experience with, learn what the think is the religion then present themselves as an authority of that religion. In the case of a native American growing up in Africa exposed to the religion they are surrounded and identifying with that religion rather than a native American religion they have genetic roots in but no experience is not an issue. It is not appropriation since she has experience and spiritual connection with the African religion.

That doesn't stop people from accusing her of it, even once she's explained that she was raised in western Africa. Also, the only Native American religion she was raised with was Christianity...when it comes to the eastern half of the US, there is far less preserved. Which is sort of my point. "Cultural appropriation" is in the eye of the beholder.

If we are really going off the idea of "what your culture is" then 99% of us should be Christian. There is no ancient Roman culture, ancient Celtic culture, ancient Norse culture, except in very very specific locations where some of them have survived--the rest is all threads and remnants that still exist in a very narrow way, removed from its original context in our very Western, very Christian cultures. If you are Pagan, unless you were born into one of those places and peoples, you are the poster child for cultural appropriation. So at that point, does it really matter if you look to more than one source for what inspires you? Does it really matter where it comes from? As long as you aren't passing yourself off as an authentic practitioner of X, does it really matter?

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

Sometimes it is wise to have a whole bunch of gods...

You know, just in case.

[DragonsFriend]

Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

The concept of religious appropriation is not new. It happened regularly in the early written history of religions. Some of the Sumerian deities were used by other cultures that were exposed to it through the travels of Sumerian merchants while the merchants probably "picked up" deities from the cultures they visited. Some were obvious appropriations with a slight change in spelling and others could have been original deities of the culture that shared the same attributes of another cultures gods and goddesses. Today, people tend to be jealous keepers of their traditions, which is fine but we need to remember that in the past traditions were shared, built upon, subtracted from and used by neighboring cultures. It was just part of life. I have books that list the different names of deities in the many middle-eastern cultures by aspects of the god or goddess. Some Sumerian deities made it into the Greek and Roman pantheons under very different names yet share the same attributes. Different cultures had different myths associated with the deity but their was what, at least, seems to be obvious influences.

[thalassa]

Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

Chickadee saw this, so...we are gonna appropriate the day to give dogs garlands and home baked treats.

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

Chickadee saw this, so...we are gonna appropriate the day to give dogs garlands and home baked treats.

You know I'm gonna run home and do this now.

[habbalah]

Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

Honestly, when it comes to either cultural or religious appropriation, the only thing I find to be a problem is when it's in a complete lack of respect and/or regard to the culture (or entity, or tradition) in question. Like deciding to fast during Ramadan every year not because you're Muslim, but because you just think an annual fast is cool. Or deciding to wear your hair s in a queue specifically to imitate when Chinese men had them, without knowing the history behind it.

Am I going to hit you with sticks if you do either? No. But it will make me give you major-side eye and wonder if you're being insensitive or are just very ignorant and not willing to learn what something means besides "this seems cool".

[anunitu]

Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

eh,everything is “cultural appropriation.”...Saw this and thought.."What?"



This weekend, a story about a canceled yoga class at the University of Ottawa went viral. Apparently, some student leaders at the school’s Centre for Students with Disabilities were worried about “cultural appropriation.” According to the Ottawa Sun:

The centre goes on to say, “Yoga has been under a lot of controversy lately due to how it is being practiced,” and which cultures those practices “are being taken from.”

The centre official argues since many of those cultures “have experienced oppression, cultural genocide and diasporas due to colonialism and western supremacy ... we need to be mindful of this and how we express ourselves while practising yoga.”

Sauce

- - - Updated - - -

As some people in comments mentioned,does this mean we can no longer eat Chinese food,or Indian food,or even Italian food. Have we been culturally insensitive, about of all things "PIZZA"

Have we stolen cultures in our quest to eat things that taste good..that Sushi,or those egg rolls,or even German pastry...or certain cheeses?
MY mouth is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO ashamed ......

[B. de Corbin]

Re: Pagan cultural appropriation

Pthzzzzzzzz.