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  • Repentance/purification practices

    Okay, this could sound weird since I've already said in a thread or two that I don't have a religion but however, this idea of a repentance/purification/making amends/atonement practice fascinates me and is still something I'd like to do. (Since shame and regret are my best buddies but a bit too loud sometimes...) I find that kind of practices fascinating and humbling somehow and I'd like to both try and learn more about them.

    And even if you didn't have a non-religious formula for such a practice, please do tell about yours! (If there's one, if not, then why not?) These kind of practices seems to be something people behind when leaving their previous, often guilt-based faith so is the concept of atonement even important in a/your Pagan worldview? Paganism in general doesn't seem too concerned with regret, guilt and the like but I assume you still have those feelings left and probably have a spiritual practice for treating them.
    (At least repentance/atonement/purification/whatever must be some kind of human condition, otherwise there wouldn't be so many words for it! By the way, I don't know if the word 'purification' sounds a bit odd there, it might come from Buddhism since they quite often call those repentance practices purification. I like the idea of purification so it kind of stuck with me.)
    baah.

  • #2
    Re: Repentance/purification practices

    If I do something that I regret then I tell the person "Sorry" ...
    I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them ... John Bernard Books


    Indian Chief 'Two Eagles' was asked by a white government official; "You have observed the white man for 90 years. You've seen his wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and the damage he's done."

    The Chief nodded in agreement.

    The official continued; "Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?"

    The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied.. "When white man find land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine Man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex."

    Then the chief leaned back and smiled; "Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."



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    • #3
      Re: Repentance/purification practices

      It is nearly impossible to make amends for the wrong done to another person, at least at the emotional level. You can however forgive yourself for it and work toward not offending in that way again. Atonement would need to be felt by both parties as an equal energy exchange. How do you make up for stealing something? You can replace what you stole but it is more difficult to give back the security that person had before something was stolen from them. (their life and space was violated and it is difficult to give that back)
      Making amends can usually be accomplished through communication. You apologize and ask forgiveness and then do what you can to make up the loss. At some point you both have to come to a point where you both forgive. You must forgive yourself whether the other person forgives you or not.
      A long time ago I decided that I never wanted to do anything that would cause me guilt. The longer I live, the better I am at accomplishing that. A very long time ago, when I was very young a woman attacked my wife verbally and it hurt her very deeply. If not for the help of a very dear friend that woman would have died that night. I knew that I was killing her and I could do little to stop myself. The rage I felt was completely overwhelming. I made a phone call to my friend who told me to feel sorry for the woman - that she would alienate everyone in her life and die lonely. I did that, with all my being and she went into the hospital that night with an advanced and acute intestinal infection that was life threatening. She pulled through and recovered quickly. The doctors could not understand how the infection started nor how it got so severe without prior warnings. I forgave her for what she did and forgave myself for being human. I vowed that I would never do that again and worked very hard to just accept people for who they are, knowing that might change from minute to minute. I have not been completely successful in controlling my magikal temper but it is very difficult to get me to the point where I cannot control my abilities now.
      The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
      I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

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      • #4
        Re: Repentance/purification practices

        I don't have so much a problem with other people (okay, I do but I'm working on it and it's not a spiritual process) but what keeps bugging me is the unnecessary shame and guilt about things other people wouldn't even consider as insulting or even things that are actually quite positive, like politeness or helping others. Or something so little like talking to someone or looking into their eyes or just saying something in a conversation. I suppose I can't go around telling people "sorry that I exist".
        Most of the time it's quite workable but sometimes it feels like my head could use some clearing.

        Originally posted by DragonsFriend
        A long time ago I decided that I never wanted to do anything that would cause me guilt.
        This sounds like a good rule to live by. I might adopt it someday..
        baah.

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        • #5
          Re: Repentance/purification practices

          Originally posted by Näre View Post
          And even if you didn't have a non-religious formula for such a practice, please do tell about yours! (If there's one, if not, then why not?)
          This question made me think of one of my favorite animes, Haibane Renmei, an anime focusing on the concept of sin and forgiveness. Here's some quotes from the movie that really resonate with me:

          Communicator: Then, do you recognize your own sin?
          Rakka: If I do, does that mean my sin will be erased?
          Communicator: Think about it. To recognize one's own sin is to have no sin. So, are you a sinner?
          Rakka: Uh! But if I think I have no sin, then I become a sinner!
          Communicator: Perhaps this is what it means to be bound by sin. To spin in the same circle, looking for where the sin lies, and at some point losing sight of the way out.
          Rakka: She's been blaming herself all this time. Why is it only Reki that can't be forgiven?
          Communicator: Why do you think YOU were forgiven?
          Rakka: It's not because I forgave myself.
          Communicator: That is correct. No one is able to forgive themselves. However you had the bird. Someone believed in you, and stood by you.
          Rakka: By recognizing one's own sin, you can't help but go around in circles if you're alone.
          I know that I'm a bit odd in that I often look to fictional sources for spiritual guidance and inspiration, but I find it works rather well for me

          I took from this that cleansing of 'sin' or 'guilt' comes about through forgiveness from an outside source. That forgiving yourself without help is extremely hard. And that it's important to ask for help when you need it, even if you fear rejection. This resonates with me and feels true, and I think that it is one of the reasons why Christianity has such a strong following.

          Everyone needs forgiveness; it's the ultimate cleansing, purification for 'sin' or 'guilt'. The movie implies that only an outside source can provide that forgiveness to break a 'cycle of sin' or 'guilt', but I think we can also forgive ourselves, though receiving it from an outside source is perhaps more effective.

          Originally posted by Näre View Post
          These kind of practices seems to be something people behind when leaving their previous, often guilt-based faith so is the concept of atonement even important in a/your Pagan worldview? Paganism in general doesn't seem too concerned with regret, guilt and the like but I assume you still have those feelings left and probably have a spiritual practice for treating them.
          For me, this concept of atonement is important. I often make mistakes when dealing with people as I tend to think slowly rather than fast and I say things that may come across as hurtful. I rethink and agonize over it later and the guilt really gets to me. I don't have an elaborate ritual or anything, I just talk with my personal goddess and she always hugs me and forgives me and then I feel a thousand times better

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          • #6
            Re: Repentance/purification practices

            When a human makes a mistake and one of the unexpected consequences is a injury to someone or some thing. You have the option of recognizing that you are human and that part of that nature is to make mistakes. I can forgive myself for being human, for existing as I am, so long as I strive to be always better. Without being able to accept my own humanity I would have no ability to recognize others humanity and forgive them.
            Along the same lines as, "if you can't love yourself you have no love for others."
            The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
            I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Repentance/purification practices

              Wallowing in guilt is so Abrahamic. If you do wrong, make amends as far as you can, move on, and don't do it again. As a Hellenic Pagan, if I shed some-ones blood I would polluted and I would need to make an offering for purification, but that eventuality is unlikely to occur!

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              • #8
                Re: Repentance/purification practices

                Originally posted by DavidMcCann View Post
                Wallowing in guilt is so Abrahamic. If you do wrong, make amends as far as you can, move on, and don't do it again. As a Hellenic Pagan, if I shed some-ones blood I would polluted and I would need to make an offering for purification, but that eventuality is unlikely to occur!
                I think even that is a bit suspect. Seem's the idea of purification offerings and such gets tied to the Orphic tablets and such though there is some connection to the Eleusinian Mysteries. Yet I haven't really found a whole lot dealing with the purification due to Miasma and such earlier than that. Though the Greeks and Roman's it seem's did go more and more into the idea of a surviving family member could also provide the appropriate blessings, offerings and such to remove an ancestor from the restless dead category.
                I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                • #9
                  Re: Repentance/purification practices

                  I go to the beach, write my stuff on the sand with symbols and then let the tide take it away. If you do t live by the sea, I'm sure there is some breath work you could do. Breathing is very cleansing. You could ask Tylluan for an idea. If you are thinking of making it a regular practise, breath work will be low key which will be better for your state of mind. It sounds like you want to change small habits so I think low key is better suited. If you make a big deal of your mistakes, they become Mini-monsters in your mind.

                  One of the key aspects of repentance is focusing on the behaviour you want to adopt. Sometimes I think of a character trait I'd like to have shown in the situation and ask for it to be released in greater measure. Put more focus on what you want rather than what you didn't do.

                  The last time I repented in a big way was when I Moved to panentheism and recognised how harmful my previous way of thinking had been. It was such a change in outlook, I felt I needed a baptism. So repentance is helpful for issues big and small.

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                  • #10
                    Re: Repentance/purification practices

                    This is an interesting topic to me, having been working so long to shed the Christian shackles wherein so much as thinking of a sin is enough to make one guilty of the same. To this day (I'm 47) I have self image issues because of those seeds planted long ago - though not as bad anymore since I've been medicated for years and, now, have chosen what is to me a better path.

                    Still, if we do wrong by someone I think we should own it and attempt to make it right. And it doesn't hurt to acknowledge to our God & Goddess that we recognize our own fault. The difference is now I don't feel as though I have to constantly keep in mind that I'm not worthy and that my way to "salvation" had to be paid for me. That's bullshit. Salvation is a carrot; damnation is a stick; and that's how the 'faithful' get led around. Guilt, fear, and coercion.

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                    • #11
                      Re: Repentance/purification practices

                      The daily meditation I use is based on one I saw in a TedEx talk on Youtube. I don't remember the guy and much of what he said smelt faintly of BS and was quite sensationalist, but I liked the structure of the meditation he was pushing.

                      It takes 7 parts (or my version does.. not sure how many the original had) and one part is to forgive someone who has wronged you, or just rubbed you up the wrong way, and this is followed by asking the universe (and more importantly in the tweeked version I use, myself), for forgiveness.

                      It has had quite a powerful effect on me. It somehow makes me own my actions, and makes me more conscious of how my feelings towards others says more about me, and my own state of mind, than it does about the person I'm annoyed with. Forgiving myself during these meditations is important for me. I have a lot of regrets.
                      夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

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                      • #12
                        Re: Repentance/purification practices

                        As a LaVeyan Satanist, we have our own take on guilt. If you did something wrong, don't do it again. Learn and move on. No point in wallowing over things. If you have learned from your mistake, you won't do it again. Thus you have forgiven yourself and move on. If you keep doing it and keep saying you are sorry...you are a damned liar.
                        Satan is my spirit animal

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                        • #13
                          Re: Repentance/purification practices

                          Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                          As a LaVeyan Satanist, we have our own take on guilt. If you did something wrong, don't do it again. Learn and move on. No point in wallowing over things. If you have learned from your mistake, you won't do it again. Thus you have forgiven yourself and move on. If you keep doing it and keep saying you are sorry...you are a damned liar.
                          This.

                          Personally I feel like repentance is... an empty gesture. I hesitate to say that because it's not that I feel like people who want to make amends are being shallow and empty... it's just not something that I feel the need to do myself. I'm 100% with Medusa on this. If you do something and the consequences matter that much to you, then don't do it again. I don't really see the point in (figuratively) prostrating yourself at someone's feet and (figuratively) indenturing yourself to them in order to make amends. I feel like that's a big waste of energy that could otherwise be spent on doing some internal work to ensure that you make the changes necessary to never do it again.

                          BUT... I do recognise that this is something that is VERY dependent on innate personality. I am simply not the sort of personality who is eaten up by remorse after I hurt someone's feelings. It's not that I'm a cold hearted bitch who is mean to everyone and doesn't care about people (most of the time ). It's just that I recognise the difference between a malicious action and an unintentionally hurtful one. And if the people around me can't understand the difference and want to hold onto an unintentional hurt and throw it in my face despite an honest apology and efforts to not do it agaim... well that's their problem and they can get stuffed because I'm not buying into it.

                          Having said that, I do actually believe in consequences and paying those consequences. I don't think you can expect to say 'sorry' and everything will just miraculously go back to normal... that's not the way that interactions with living beings go. There are consequences to be paid, and you can't pay them with 'sorry' and buying someone fancy gifts. You pay them in the change to the friendship and emotional bond, and the trust between you. If you can show someone that you have actually changed and that it will not happen again, then the bond is repaired and in some cases your relationship is stronger than every. But if you do not show that, than no amount of reparation will make a difference in the long run.

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                          • #14
                            Re: Repentance/purification practices

                            I have done stuff that is really bad and when I think about it it kind of unnerves me to a degree, I don't like guilt and feeling it, so honestly I just repress it and go about my day. Usually it takes something bad happening to dig it up. So I'm thinking maybe I need to figure out some way to get right with it.
                            White and Red 'till I'm cold and dead.
                            sigpic
                            In Days of yore,
                            From Britain's shore
                            Wolfe the dauntless hero came
                            And planted firm Britannia's flag
                            On Canada's fair domain.
                            Here may it wave,
                            Our boast, our pride
                            And joined in love together,
                            The thistle, shamrock, rose entwined,
                            The Maple Leaf Forever.

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                            • #15
                              Re: Repentance/purification practices

                              I don't believe in sin, and I don't believe we were put here to sin. I don't think most humans are innately evil. So this need to always ask for forgiveness doesn't really sit well with me.
                              Thus is going to come off as cynical but I believe most of the time we know the reactions our behavior or actions are going to cause and if your having to ask for forgiveness or pentence then maybe you shouldn't have done it at all. Now on the off chance you really had no clue what your actions would cause then learn from it, and don't repeat the action.
                              As for the repeat offenders if your constantly repeating your not really sorry and your repentance is false and ain't nobody got time for that.
                              My code of conduct is based on the rule of three. That's what I go by.

                              - - - Updated - - -

                              Also forgive any typos I'm on my phone waiting for kp to get off work.
                              Last edited by kalynraye; 11 Oct 2015, 20:43.
                              "If you want to know what a man is like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -- Sirius Black

                              "Time is an illusion, lunch time doubly so."-- Ford Prefect

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