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    #16
    Re: Selective Service registration and women....

    Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
    I turned 18 the year after the draft ended, following the Viet Nam War. I'll be honest with you, not many people were willing to enlist after that war, and I certainly did not.

    I would not be adverse to the idea of some form of national service being tied to citizenship, but it should not be exclusively military. That would say that only those who have been trained to fight are REAL Americans. There need to be other options - not everybody should be military.
    I agree with this completely. Not to derail the thread, but I know there are some programs, usually tied to college scholarships, where the state or government pays for your education and then you work for them for an allotted amount of type.

    To the OP: I don't even see why it's a debate. As much as I would hesitate to serve in the military, and hate to be drafted, equality is equality and all eligible females should have to sign up just like the males do. I do wonder if the reluctance to have women sign up is coming equally from the genders, or if they are coming from a particular gender more than the other. Hm...
    ~Rudyard Kipling, The Cat Who Walks By Himself

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      #17
      Re: Selective Service registration and women....

      Originally posted by ThePaganMafia View Post
      Yeah, with the current defense budget and just the sheer amount of troops we have. Compulsory military service is an outdated practice and one that should be buried. Who is anyone to tell me that I or anyone should don a uniform and fight a war?
      I agree with this ^.

      Freedom is what America was created for... And compulsory military service is not upholding that ideal.

      Also, in regards to selective service system; I want equal rights for women, but I don't want this for either gender.

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        #18
        Re: Selective Service registration and women....

        Originally posted by ThePaganMafia View Post
        Obligations to the State? Sounds fairly totalatian. No, I have no obligation to fight a war for anybody and while Selective Service is something I never had to register for, if I was drafted my ass would be in Canada in a day.
        My apologies for this slight derailment.

        There is a significant difference between conscription, and the use of conscripts in combat, and if I recall properly, at least in the developed world, typically there is legislation which defines when and how it acceptable to use conscripts. Plus conscientious objectors can fill the very many needed 'non-combat' positions of the military, after completing basic combat training. Conscription can function much like a reserve force. Not the main force that will do any fighting should it come about, but present as a trained reserve if the threat to the social or territorial integrity of the nation is faced with a significant threat.

        And no, its not totalitarian to say that citizens have duties and responsibilities to the state. I struggle to see how you reached such a conclusion, or that military conscription, or national service in general, is not compatible with a free society, but I digress.
        Last edited by LunarHarvest; 13 Oct 2015, 09:58.

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          #19
          Re: Selective Service registration and women....

          Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
          I turned 18 the year after the draft ended, following the Viet Nam War. I'll be honest with you, not many people were willing to enlist after that war, and I certainly did not.

          I would not be adverse to the idea of some form of national service being tied to citizenship, but it should not be exclusively military. That would say that only those who have been trained to fight are REAL Americans. There need to be other options - not everybody should be military.
          I know there used to be quite a few other options one could take vice military service. I know during WWII many Mormons, Mennonites and Amish served as smoke jumpers & forestry service positions for instance. I vaguely recall the peace corps used to be an option but do not know if that one qualifies anymore. I also vaguely recall something about serving in a police force capacity or fire and rescue also meeting the requirement for serving. I know a few who tried the national guard / reserves route but found out they tend to get called up right away while the regular military forces are applied elsewhere or being built back up after some major situation.

          I do agree though that not everyone should be or needs to be in the military. From a leadership position it's a royal pain when upwards of 90 percent of your time is taken dealing with the 1 - 5 percent who never should have been allowed in or drafted. Even in the all volunteer force there are still plenty who do not belong and never should have been allowed to enlist or be sworn in.
          I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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            #20
            Re: Selective Service registration and women....

            Originally posted by LunarHarvest View Post
            Because you live under the state. And like laws passed by the state, you therefore have rights and obligations to the state that you must follow. In some aspects you have to accept that you are not in charge of the decisions you have in life, and duties that must be rendered to the state are among them.

            In addition, national service does more than simply train the citizenry to defend the nation, but also gives them a good amount of skills and additional education they can apply in the workforce, which can be a boon for individuals looking to enter the workforce immediately after they have fulfilled their duty rather than go into university. It also promotes physical health and a sense of duty, and prepares the people for the inevitability of war, among many other beneficial qualities.

            As for the number of soldiers, or military spending, cool...not all of us live in the US of A though. In other news, in terms of United States Military spending, private contractors and non-government entities, which have taken over many of the roles in the military cost a lot more than if the Army were to handle them themselves. Reduction or elimination in the use of private contractors, and reduction of foreign military presence, would more than likely free up more than enough money.

            If Finland can have conscription, and a well-trained and armed military, while still ensuring a good quality of life and standard of government services, with less than half the costs on defence as the United States, in relation to their GDP, there are few reasons why the United States would be incapable of doing the same.
            Finland's military is not an expeditionary force to my knowledge. The US defense scheme constitutes "be everywhere so that we're never actually fighting on home soil" and that is an absurdedly expensive thing to pull off. That's not to say the US can't pull off universal service without cutting into other abilities. I think we actually could but it would require restructuring a lot of things and the tax code would be high on the list.

            Aside from that, military may equal risk of combat but it does not explicitly equal combat arms. The US can pull off its absurdedly expensive "always fight on some other poor soul's property" plan because it is very good at moving trained personnel and material in excessive numbers from point A to point B. That involves a lot of support personnel. If we ever did adopt universal conscription then I'd look to fill every conceivable support role with conscripts and fill the more combative roles with people who stay past their conscription period.
            life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

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            John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

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            Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


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              #21
              Re: Selective Service registration and women....

              Originally posted by LunarHarvest View Post
              My apologies for this slight derailment.

              There is a significant difference between conscription, and the use of conscripts in combat, and if I recall properly, at least in the developed world, typically there is legislation which defines when and how it acceptable to use conscripts. Plus conscientious objectors can fill the very many needed 'non-combat' positions of the military, after completing basic combat training. Conscription can function much like a reserve force. Not the main force that will do any fighting should it come about, but present as a trained reserve if the threat to the social or territorial integrity of the nation is faced with a significant threat.

              And no, its not totalitarian to say that citizens have duties and responsibilities to the state. I struggle to see how you reached such a conclusion, or that military conscription, or national service in general, is not compatible with a free society, but I digress.
              Forced service of any kind is absolutely incompatible with a free society. The State does not get to dictate what obligations I have to it and I have not inherent obligation to serve.

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                #22
                Re: Selective Service registration and women....

                Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
                .. Aside from that, military may equal risk of combat but it does not explicitly equal combat arms. The US can pull off its absurdedly expensive "always fight on some other poor soul's property" plan because it is very good at moving trained personnel and material in excessive numbers from point A to point B. That involves a lot of support personnel. If we ever did adopt universal conscription then I'd look to fill every conceivable support role with conscripts and fill the more combative roles with people who stay past their conscription period.
                Realistically the military used to have a lot of billets and jobs that would have fit that requirement. Unfortunately from the 1980's onward the government went to great detail to remove a lot of them and turn them over to Civilians or Civilian Contractors.

                When I entered in 1978 every base had military personal at check points, roving guards, police, etc. Almost all of our pay, travel, administration work was done by active duty personal not civilians like today. The guards that stood inside the base perimeter at building entrances, pier entrances, security compound entrances, etc where also all active duty regardless of service component. Today those are almost all rent-a-cops filling those positions. Consider the Army Corp of Engineer's and the Navy Construction Battalions (Seabee's) can not be used to build on military compounds or government facilities because the law says they are competing against civilian construction companies and you have to hire them first. So there is another waste of manpower yet also billets that could be filled with other's for the manual labor and such with high turn over rates.

                Lots of positions and manpower issue that could have been used and actually reduced operational cost to the military and government.

                - - - Updated - - -

                Originally posted by ThePaganMafia View Post
                Forced service of any kind is absolutely incompatible with a free society. The State does not get to dictate what obligations I have to it and I have not inherent obligation to serve.
                But then realistically the state should also have the right and ability to say it doesn't have to take care of you or provide services as those are implied obligations the state has to counter the obligations the citizen has to the state.
                I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                  #23
                  Re: Selective Service registration and women....

                  Well if the State says it will quit providing services than I guess I will just quit paying taxes.

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                    #24
                    Re: Selective Service registration and women....

                    Originally posted by ThePaganMafia View Post
                    Well if the State says it will quit providing services than I guess I will just quit paying taxes.
                    Going further off topic but then it becomes an issue is the state actually the "State" one lives in or is it the total Federal Government? Especially since each has the right to call up militia / guard / reserves and each has a capacity to impose taxes and other obligations upon the citizens. In its capacity to call up national guard, reserves, etc it implies each has a clause for the creation and maintenance of an army in some capacity.
                    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                      #25
                      Re: Selective Service registration and women....

                      Originally posted by ThePaganMafia View Post
                      Well if the State says it will quit providing services than I guess I will just quit paying taxes.
                      Yeah, sorry, but the way government works isn't a case of 'I scratch their back if they scratch mine', which it seems you wouldn't even be in favour of anyway. Its a case of, 'I will scratch their back because they scratch mine and because, if I don't, they stop scratching, and instead the rod is applied.' You pay your taxes because you do not have the authority or right to deny the government on such a matter. For one thing, the government is the reason that currency which you use exists, or has any value, in the first place, and also provides for those most crucial and necessary of infastructure.

                      The state is a higher authority in many matters, and an aspect of being a good and mature citizen is to recognise that, while we may chose who runs the government, we are not the greater authority to the government. It is the place of government to rule, and the place of the citizen to obey. The state most certainly has obligations to the people within the organisation of society, but likewise the people have duties to the state. Without the state there is no such thing as liberty, since socio-political liberties are only really present to the extent they are enforced and protected within the laws of the state.

                      I do agree with some previous points made though. The States focus too much on being militarily involved in the internal affairs of other countries, and that would likely be of a significant hindrance to a national service scheme. Plus conscripts typically have to many issues if you send them to fight in active combat. It is better to have them focus on a more defensive aspect of protecting the national integrity, and for a state to concentrate on its own internal affairs and defence.

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                        #26
                        Re: Selective Service registration and women....

                        Well, I am neither a good or mature citizen so those really don't apply to me. I am very in favor of taxes as I do like to use roads and such. But, these things do not obligate me to put on a uniform for anyone. It is not my place to obey anyone.

                        Back to actual conscripted service....its not feasible. We already have a large deficit mainly due to military matters. It would increase a large burden on the taxpayer. I would like to see our DoD budgets far reduced instead of increased. Plus the volunteer military is far more effective than the drafted military.

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                          #27
                          Re: Selective Service registration and women....

                          Yes. Because there is no difference between out of shape flabby men and out of shape flabby women. If it ever comes to a time of war where actual bodies are needed...off you all go.
                          Satan is my spirit animal

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                            #28
                            Re: Selective Service registration and women....

                            I do agree that the military is not for everyone. I remember while I was in Boot camp,remember it was Navy boot camp. A few could not handle navy boot camp,a walk in the park compared to Marine and army boot camp. Air force might be as easy as navy boot camp. Seriously we had a few that jumped out of second story windows because thy could not handle simple stuff,the long hours when we had mess duty for a week. I can understand how some might wash out in a marine boot,or an army boot,but navy and air force was FUN for me.
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                              #29
                              Re: Selective Service registration and women....

                              Originally posted by LunarHarvest View Post
                              It is the place of government to rule, and the place of the citizen to obey.
                              I'm pretty sure you got that backwards, at least in regards to the United States.
                              The will of the people is the only legitimate foundation of any government...


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                                #30
                                Re: Selective Service registration and women....

                                I'm not reading this entire thread for varioud reasons, but when it comes to women having ro register for selective service, I'm all for it. If it comes to required service (some like Israel or Starship Troopers), I'm not advers to required service provided military service isn't the only form of service. I'd also prefer the service to be conditional to participation in something like the GI Bill---a year for a year. Bring back the CCC, expand AmeriCorps, open clinics for the Public Health Service, etc.
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