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The chicken or the egg( the religious edition!)

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    The chicken or the egg( the religious edition!)

    So a question or two for the theist minded folks (and hey, even the non theists can play).

    Some talk first. It seems to me people who find a faith are of two camps.

    Camp 1. People who find a belief system and then start following that system. They find out the 'rules and regulations' and they start obeying. They find out the 'sins and no-no's' and start complying. They hear the creation story and maybe all the other stories and start to form an opinion on those stories. Yup. I can believe that stuff. I shall call myself a 'here's your religion place card'.

    Camp 2. People who have a belief and go searching for a belief system that matches that. They say here is what I believe. Here is what I think are sins and good things. Here is how I think creation started. And now I'm going to find a belief system that matches me.

    Now both are equally fine in my opinion. This isn't a one is bad and one is good situation here. (which is why it's not in the debate section). I'm just personally curious because I am of camp 2. But I realize there are people who are camp 1. I'm guessing most of that is probably a 'born into' it situation. And as we are on a Pagan forum, I would figure most of us are not with the same belief system we were 'born into'.

    So which is it for you?

    Did you find your religion and then start searching what it was about?
    Did you know what you already believed and started trying to find a match?
    More importantly, have you found anything in your religion you didn't quite believe or get and then come to believe and understand?
    Do you find yourself bending more to fit to your religion or not?
    Do you struggle with your religion? And if so, why?

    Let's chat.
    Satan is my spirit animal

    #2
    Re: The chicken or the egg( the religious edition!)

    camp 2 ... no ... yes ... no ... NOPE ... no because it has no set boundaries except those that I impose ...
    I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them ... John Bernard Books


    Indian Chief 'Two Eagles' was asked by a white government official; "You have observed the white man for 90 years. You've seen his wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and the damage he's done."

    The Chief nodded in agreement.

    The official continued; "Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?"

    The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied.. "When white man find land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine Man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex."

    Then the chief leaned back and smiled; "Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."



    Comment


      #3
      Re: The chicken or the egg( the religious edition!)

      I think for me, it was a little of both camps...

      I had given Christianity a try since most of my friends already followed it (my family is not religious at all). There was parts of it I liked, and I stuck with it long enough to get confirmation (Methodist) to decide it wasn't for me after all. I liked praying and talking with God, but I hated church and the sense that most other people didn't seem to have that close a relationship with spirituality as I was looking for. Also, church was so boring... Even Sunday school wasn't much better. I just couldn't handle the thought of wasting every Sunday for the rest of my life doing that...

      So yeah. Stopped going.

      I was on the market after that. I didn't actually know what I believed except that I wanted something close and personal with divinity; something magical.

      I was at the book store with my mother one day and they had this display of two books; one was some kind of encyclopedia of black magic and the other was on white magic. I actually was all over the black magic one; just thought it looked cool :^^: My mom noticed and she was on the look out I guess for potential Christmas presents. I guess she didn't like the look of the black magic book as she got me the white magic one. It was called, Encyclopedia Of White Magic by Paddy Slade; it was my first witchcraft book and it just clicked for me.

      I didn't know what I was looking for exactly (think I was too young to have a conscious list worked out), just something where I could talk to divinity without feeling like I was doing something not quite right (people prayed at the Christian church, but everyone always said that God didn't really talk back, which wasn't my experience, but I thought maybe I wasn't doing it right as I really wanted him to talk back). Also, I wanted something more magical and interesting than the rather dry and boring church services and Sunday school I used to attend.

      I ended up finding those initial requirements in witchcraft. After that point, I was really more in the 'camp one' group. I kept going to the library until I'd read all of their small selection of witchcraft books (I think they had like 3 or 4 tops) and then saving up my allowance to raid the book store.

      I used to ride my bike to the book store and just sit there and read their books when I couldn't afford to outright buy them. A lot of what I read felt right to me even though I'd never heard of most of it before. So I kind of learned as I went and adopted it as my own.

      You can see my beat up copy here of the white magic book:




      I've long since lost the jacket cover and the spine is held together by a combination of scotch and packaging tapes. It served as kind of my first Book of Shadows, in a way, and it is very important to me :^^:

      Comment


        #4
        Re: The chicken or the egg( the religious edition!)

        I'm in camp 1. I was born into a Jewish household. Back then, my grandmother (father's mum) and father were the religious ones. Now there is only my father. Judaism failed to give me the proper answers, besides I didn't agree with much of its plot.

        I first started looking at every religion's principles. It was something similar to: "This religion says X, Y, Z. Nope, it's not for me". When I reached kemetism, it was more of "Yes, that's it!".
        The myths and world creation didn't worry me that much back then and still don't. Many faiths have a certain concept on which they're built. This concept is what I was paying attention for.
        Yes. The whole concepts of Ma'at, Isfet and "Kemetism today" were particularly difficult to understand. But now they're in clarity.
        Do you find yourself bending more to fit to your religion or not?
        - can you please explain? I'm not sure I understand correctly..
        Yes, I did struggle. It was hard to find an official branch of Kemetism to be a member of. Later on, quite recently after talking with Tylluan I understood I didn't need it and could simply build one for myself.
        "Fair means that everybody gets what they need. And the only way to get that is to make it happen yourself."



        Since I adore cats, I might write something strange or unusual in my comment.Cats are awesome!!! ^_^

        Comment


          #5
          Re: The chicken or the egg( the religious edition!)

          I guess maybe I fall into category 3 in that I've always had my beliefs and opinions but never went looking for either a pathway to make myself fit into or a pathway that matched what I believed and adopted it. I simply walked it and moved through various veils and occasionally some things stuck. But my core values and beliefs have pretty much remained the same though the manner I express them through may have taken on other verbiage.

          Do I struggle with it? The answer there has to be yes in the aspect my understanding and depth of it constantly evolves. Through evolution I am made to see things from various aspects and ponder each of them. Each pondering truthfully increasing the depths to which I look or expand into the Leap of Faith type situation then working backwards at times to see it from another angle. Sometimes stuck in understanding something that has befallen me but finding part of an answer in something else that is similar but not exactly the same.

          If there is bending to fit into it then it's subtle and gradual vice sharp and harsh. I find my beliefs to be dynamic in that the dimensions are always fluid and in motion yet static or quasi-static in that certain aspects remain unchanging or so slow in changing that it doesn't register it simply evolves with experience and self analysis.
          I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

          Comment


            #6
            Re: The chicken or the egg( the religious edition!)

            Sometimes it is just oh there you are truth.....and you are off into your new belief...sometimes it is that simple...
            MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

            all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
            NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
            don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




            sigpic

            my new page here,let me know what you think.


            nothing but the shadow of what was

            witchvox
            http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

            Comment


              #7
              Re: The chicken or the egg( the religious edition!)

              As far as a belief system goes, I lean more toward Asatru than any other. I like the "craftiness" of witchcraft, but the god & goddess I connect with are Freyr & Frey and the Noble Virtues are what I try to follow. That said, I wasn't looking for a religion - it found me.

              I never attended church as an adult, but still carried the Christian baggage as though I were attending every Sunday & Wednesday. I wasn't "devout," I just felt guilty. I joined a Masonic lodge and that became my "church," and it was close enough for me. I liked its tolerance for all belief systems, which was one thing that helped me shed that baggage over the years.

              About two years ago I started getting into Eastern philosophy - it resonated, but didn't bring me the sense of peace I hoped for. Soon thereafter I started getting into divination and talking regularly with my spirit guide. I was mainly using the pendulum in both respects, but soon got curious about other means - and my guide encouraged me to follow that curiosity.

              It was after I picked up the runes that I came across Asatru. It was at that point I realized that for years Mjolnir had been presenting itself to me at regular intervals. Everywhere I had turned, the hammer had been in front of me. My SG assured me I wasn't imagining it - there had been a reason for it. I found it curious, as the Germanic blood in my family was way back there, many generations removed.

              It took a while to figure it out, but I found that the reason was my adopted daughter. Her Germanic roots are only a generation removed. Before she had come along, I was largely apathetic to the plight of others outside my own family. I had sympathy when I heard of things in the news or on the street, but was always so focused on my own life it never occurred to me to take initiative to do something about it. But the minute Michelle entered the picture I was uncharacteristically driven to take action. My sole focus was to be the father she needed. I couldn't explain why - I just felt that I needed to do it. I had no interest in fostering others (although now I would, if needed, I'm just not driven to it) - I felt my purpose was for her. All along my SG was confirming this, and once I made the correlation between that uncharacteristic motivation and the hammer figuratively smacking me in the face at every turn, it all made sense.

              So, for me, I wasn't actively searching for a particular faith. I was happy believing what I believed without labeling it as anything. I truly feel the gods tapped me on the shoulder to save her. Why? I have no idea except to say that I have been the only one who would go to bat for her regardless of the situation. So many have given up on her, and I refuse to.

              I'm getting that she's not the only purpose for me, but she's the one I need to focus on at this point.

              Forgive the length - I get verbose sometimes. I hope it makes sense.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: The chicken or the egg( the religious edition!)

                I figure in order to find something that "feels" right for yourself you have to really get to know yourself first. Most people know how they want to be perceived and some of their faults but I find that very few really even want to know themselves. It helps to start with the fact that you are a human animal, a member of the sapien family group.

                Hickory, I believe you are right. Michelle was put in front of you for your growth and her support. Not necessarily a goal but definitely part of the path you are walking. It will be interesting to see where it leads.
                The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
                I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: The chicken or the egg( the religious edition!)

                  I want to be camp 1. But I'm failing so bad. :P so let's say I'm an outsider, sometimes snatching a piece of sushi from each camp.
                  baah.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: The chicken or the egg( the religious edition!)

                    I've always been a loner, so I haven't looked for a name for the beliefs I have. One person has told me I'm basically on the way to Trad Witchcraft, another says I'm a theist in denial, I'd say I have animistic flavours with no distinct path yet.

                    To an extent, I am happy to follow a system that works for me, in that sense I'm a "polylatrist" if there is such a thing. I would like to find the beliefs of my ancestors, which won't be easy as they left no written records, but if I believe something that has no foundation in the past I won't pretend it is anything other than novel. I'm not actively looking for a religion or anything, rather learning about practices. If I do join one it will be through passive study, rather than active search. Which of the camps does that fit into? I wouldn't adjust my beliefs to fit a religion if they didn't work with my observations and experiences, I've done that already and it wasn't fun, so I don't think it's really camp A which, correct me if I'm wrong, is for people who don't have a clue what they believe. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's a bad thing. Some of us have spiritual experiences already cached, some don't. Those of us who do won't probably marry perfectly into any religion and that's just life.
                    I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
                    Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
                    But that day you know I left my money
                    And I thought of you only
                    All that copper glowing fine

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: The chicken or the egg( the religious edition!)

                      "...marry perfectly into any religion..." by Briton

                      I like that! I also know that there are many people who follow a given religion because it fits "well enough to be acceptable" while allowing them the interaction with others who have similar spiritualities. I doubt you could find any two people in the would that had the exact same spirituality. Religions just allow us to share those common points in groups.
                      The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
                      I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

                      Comment

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