Prayer and spells

[Medusa]

As a non theist I want to be up front (as if you didn't already know). I do not believe in spells and I do not believe in prayer.

Can I speak plainly here? Cool. A lot of gruff gets thrown at theists who pray. It's not doing anything! It's useless air! Nothing gets done!

Oh but it works say the believers (any believers). Stuff happens! It's in the deity's hand if they want to intervene after all my prayers.


Spells. A lot of gruff gets thrown at people who believe in spells. Repeat and rinse from up top.


So. What's the difference?
So let's narrow you down to your words.


Do you believe in spells?
Do you believe in prayers?
If there is a yes/no divide please explain your answers.
And what do you think is the difference between the two?


And please, no cheating on the test.

[magusphredde]

Re: Prayer and spells

yes and yes because I want to ... Difference? ... spells usually contain physical items such as crystals, talismans, etc ... whereas prayers are mainly a communicative plea for a certain outcome ...

[SleepingCompass]

Re: Prayer and spells

Do you believe in spells?
Do you believe in prayers?
If there is a yes/no divide please explain your answers.
And what do you think is the difference between the two?

I believe in both spells and prayers.

The difference being that spells are something that though you may ask for divinity to aid you, you're mostly working to effect change through magical means on your own.

Prayers is asking divinity to effect change for you without using your own personal means of magical interference.

I think both methods work, though personally, I prefer spells for the smaller stuff and a combination of both for the bigger stuff.

[iris]

Re: Prayer and spells

Yes and yes...
A spell is an exertion of your will, usually helped along by a concentration of your energy using tools. Gods can be involved too, asking them for assistance in whatever you're doing. But you're the one who has to do the hard work.

Prayers can be so many things. But they're not attempts to conciously make changes here and now. They may be wishes for that. They may 'just' be a communication with/to a divinity. But they're generally more passive than spells.

[Näre]

Re: Prayer and spells

I'd say people who do spells have this "I can do it" attitude whereas those who pray put their trust in a divine being.
I'm skeptical at both but if I had to choose, I'd be on team prayer. It seems more meaningful for me to believe in something bigger than myself (I'm not a big fan of the "you can be/do anything" thing anyway) even though it was only a psychological trick, putting my problems in the hands of something larger instead of ruminating all by myself about things that can't be changed.

[Gleb]

Re: Prayer and spells

As a non theist I want to be up front (as if you didn't already know). I do not believe in spells and I do not believe in prayer.

Can I speak plainly here? Cool. A lot of gruff gets thrown at theists who pray. It's not doing anything! It's useless air! Nothing gets done!

Oh but it works say the believers (any believers). Stuff happens! It's in the deity's hand if they want to intervene after all my prayers.


Spells. A lot of gruff gets thrown at people who believe in spells. Repeat and rinse from up top.


So. What's the difference?
So let's narrow you down to your words.


Do you believe in spells?
Do you believe in prayers?
If there is a yes/no divide please explain your answers.
And what do you think is the difference between the two?


And please, no cheating on the test.

Medusa, I think the difference is in the group meant in spells/prayers and the way it's done. Let me explain. When you pray, you can seek help from a higher power for yourself and/or for others. There are different prayers as well as spells. With spells, you can either target yourself, almost with any spell, or another person/group of people. Only with spells you rely on your own power or power of a spirit/guardian.

One night I couldn't sleep since I was all nervous. So I went to the balcony, which was a good place to pray, due to the open and wide window and fresh air blowing in the face. I spent there a couple of minutes in order to calm down and prayed how I knew - using the formula of ancient Egyptian texts: "I am this and this, I ask for help in this hour". Something like that, I don't remember accurately.

To sum up, I think all the difference is in the way it's done and in the intent.

[Herbert]

Re: Prayer and spells

1. Yes, I believe in the effectiveness of spells.
2. Yes, I believe in the effectiveness of prayers, but not in the efficiency of them.
3. -
4. As someone with a solid mixture of views, I cast spells fairly frequently (albeit not major ones), and I practically never pray. I mean, in my conception, people passively donate their own magical energy whenever they pray or worship a specific god/spirit, and then the god/spirit generally uses that donated magic in ways that encourage further prayer and worship while also advancing their interests. Prayer can accomplish much bigger things than spells, but only when doing so would be completely in line with the god's/spirit's interests.

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: Prayer and spells

There is no real difference between a prayer and a spell, in my mind. Because honestly, they are basically the same thing.

When you pray for something, you are making a request to the universe, your gods, your ancestors, whatever for their aid. You get quiet, you still your mind, and you make your request either in your mind our out loud with words.

Now, let's look at a spell. You're taking items, concentration, and sounds and casting them out into the universe in order to make a certain thing happen. You are doing so in hopes that the universe, your gods, your ancestors, whatever will take and shape the energy that you're putting forth from those combinations you threw together and make something happen.

A spell is a prayer, just with bells and whistles.

Now, the effectiveness of them comes into play based off of the person doing it. Say I cast a spell to help me manage my money better. Over the next month, I take every step I can to cut costs, stop buying useless things, and to find ways to reduce my bills. At the end of the month, I discover that I saved a whole ton of cash! Well, my spell must have worked! Or did it? Or did I simply put my mind to taking steps to watch my budget, and by "casting the spell" I was able to get myself into the mindset to do it?

With that said, I do believe in the power of spells and prayer. The reasoning for this is, in a way, based in a combination of science and "magic". I've mentioned this is a previous thread about runes, but it has bearing here. Science has proven that different frequencies of sound can have an actual affect upon health, thinking, etc etc. Nothing new here. When you intone a chant, you are creating vibration. By placing a crystal in front of you, as you chant, the things around you will change the vibration simply by being there. So far still simple, yeah? So what you're really doing with a prayer or a spell is that you're sending vibrations out into the world, and who knows what kind of effect that may have? After all, if a butterfly beats it's wings 1000 times around the Eiffel Tower, we may just end up with a hurricane in New York City.

[DragonsFriend]

Re: Prayer and spells

Do you believe in spells?
Do you believe in prayers?
If there is a yes/no divide please explain your answers.
And what do you think is the difference between the two?

Yes, spells are real and magik always works
I believe prayer exists but I don't use them myself
Spells are where I do the work in partnership with deity while a prayer asks deity to do all the work.
The actual difference is that I use the energy in a spell to affect a real outcome. I generate change in reality.
Asking deity to do the work can be very powerful but at the same time it relies on deity believing in your cause enough to affect the change for you.
The difference is like the difference between getting a job to buy something and asking a rich uncle to buy it for you. If the uncle doesn't believe you are ready for it or need it then he is likely to do something else instead.

[faye_cat]

Re: Prayer and spells

Yes, I believe in both.

I've always said that both prayer and spells are a way to focus your thoughts and intentions of an issue.

Spells are a little more interactive, I guess would be the word?, where you really try to manifest the outcome you want. Prayer is more reflective, more of a a mental rehashing of the issue, and how to resolve it.

So essentially, both are similar in the fact that they are a way to address an issue in your life, and can be as religious or non religious as the person likes, but they differ in the way they are carried out.

[Willow]

Re: Prayer and spells

Do you believe in spells?
Do you believe in prayers?
If there is a yes/no divide please explain your answers.
And what do you think is the difference between the two?


And please, no cheating on the test.

Yes and yes. Here's my breakdown:

Prayer: a thanks, request, plea, or way of sending out a thought/idea/feeling into the universe or to whatever deity you're sending it to without any real expectation of something being done about it. I.e. I pray to my deities to help me find guidance, to hear my gratitude when something works out despite my worst fears, to hear me when I'm in pain. But I don't expect them to respond in any form. It's more of an informal way of connecting for me.


Spell: a conscious, willful directing of energies to bring about some form of change, empowerment, or giving empowerment to others.


I do far more praying than I do spell-work.

[thalassa]

Re: Prayer and spells

Yes and yes. Spells are prayers with props for the purpose of achieving something specific in conjunction with personal will. Prayers are conversations with the *something* numinous that those of us that are theistic engage with...and not all prayers are petitioning prayers.

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Prayer and spells

Oh yes. And yes.
Very little difference depending on one's approach. It is possible to 'entrust' a spell to a deity (see some of the lead defixio cursing tablets at the Roman Baths in Bath, Avon). Or it is possible to 'DIY' and just get on with a spell oneself. So not much difference IMHO between the two really. An entrusting spell has to involve a certain amount of prayer (I feel).

It is possible to use prayer to 'talk' to a deity.
Personally I prefer to listen and observe.

I try not to talk to my spells. It freaks young Noah out (our St Bernard.)