Reality of gods vs reality of experience

[thalassa]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

What I was actually trying to express is that we accept a lot of things in life because we trust the sources. There is no proof offered or evidence provided. We just accept it because it is "common knowledge".

Yes, we could play the epistemology game over this, if we really wanted to. How do we know what we know? Its actually a quite fascinating subject, and would make a fabulous new thread. But equating the existence of Paris with photoshopped Google pictures for the purposes of this debate is disingenous at best.

[Briton]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

Hi. Forgive this pagan newbie, if you've explained elsewhere a link would be great, but how/why worship as a practicing pagan when you firmly believe that it's all in your head?

[anunitu]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

In my case,as I have been told,I live inside my head...

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

Hi. Forgive this pagan newbie, if you've explained elsewhere a link would be great, but how/why worship as a practicing pagan when you firmly believe that it's all in your head?

Because reality and perception are, in fact, all in our heads. No two beings, whether they are human or not, perceives the world (physical and other) in the exact same manner. Take this little anecdote I came up with for a class a few years ago.

A priest, a rabbi, and a bhuddist were taking a leisurely stroll through a forest when they came across a huge tree. They paused, and looked in wonder when the priest broke the silence.

"Look here! In the bark of this magnificent tree you can see the face of Jesus! It is a sign from God that all is right in the world."

They pondered this together, then the rabbi spoke up.

"I am sorry, Father, but you are wrong. The bark is shaped like Hebrew letters, telling the tale of our people. It is a sign from God that we, like this tree, will last thousands of years and endure all that it comes our way."

Again, the trio pondered this, and after a moment the monk turned away and began to continue their walk. Surprised, the other two paused and asked him what he saw in the bark of the tree. Slowly, and with a serene smile on his face, the monk replied.

"What tree?"

[Rae'ya]

You cannot argue faith against logic and you can't use logic against faith. The two are incompatible.

My faith and my logic work perfectly fine together.

Hi. Forgive this pagan newbie, if you've explained elsewhere a link would be great, but how/why worship as a practicing pagan when you firmly believe that it's all in your head?

Because the take-home VALUE of an experience is quite independant of the nature of that which is experienced.

[Briton]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

Munin, I think I understand what you are getting at. Are you stating that physical reality, which is perceived differently from person to person may as well be considered no more valid than the beliefs we have of the supernatural world and that since our brains can only experience that which is in the brain, for all intents and purposes our relationships are, in that sense at least, all in our heads because we cannot experience something outside of ourselves? ie even if you included OBE, experiences are still happening within the world of our mind, if someone else touches a tree, I can't be getting first hand experience of the texture of the bark..?

Rae'ya, whilst that is true, I am finding it hard to fathom how a person says "yes it's all in my head" then "but I believe that god to be real."

I guess it must be cross wires because to me "in my head" means "I made it up to sate a curiosity without trying." And thus any relationship with such an idea is just a relationship with one's own fantasy. If people are using words within a separate 'dialect' than I am used to, that may help explain why I'm finding it hard to understand how a relationship with something that you are sure is "all in your head" can be, in any way, satisfying... do you know what I mean?

[thalassa]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

Hi. Forgive this pagan newbie, if you've explained elsewhere a link would be great, but how/why worship as a practicing pagan when you firmly believe that it's all in your head?

I've never said that I believe that its all in my head. Someone else has said that for me. What I have said, and what I maintain is that it given the dearth of evidence otherwise, in thousands of years of human existence and billions of person's experiences that there has not been one shred of verifiable, repeatable, physical observation, (combined with the many, many quirky things that our brain does when interpreting the world around us) that it is highly likey that it is all in out heads. The possibility always remains that this (the logical position, based on the lack of observable evidence we have) is incorrect and that, indeed, we simply lack the technology or the understanding to percieve the causal agent people's experiences of god...whether that be the gods or an individual interpretation of some causal agent (if for no other reason than because of the nature of science and scientific inquiry, it is unlikely that there will ever be anything able to disprove the idea of god).

It is my personal belief that there is numinous quality to existence. That there is some form of agency inherent in the warp and weft of the Universe. In Latin, this quality is often called the mysterium tremendum et fascinans--the mystery that terrifies and fascinates. How (even if) people interpret it is dependent on a number of factors, from their cultural programming, to their own personal preferences, to their inherent capacity to do so. I assume that if I didn't think that there was a numinous quality to existence that I would worship in otherways, if at all (but yes, there are Pagans that are Atheist and do so for a variety of reasons). But in my case, I do so because I believe in the sacredness of the world around us, and in honoring the spirit of that which makes up that world (and part of that world is humanity)--I worship the Beach because I live by it, because it speaks to me, because its moods influence my daily life, because it gives me joy to do so. I call it Psamathe, because that is the name it answers to--Psamathe (from ψάμαθος) means something like "sandy shore" and is the name of one of the Nerieds...and whether that is all a product of my imagination or an actual interation between myself and a spirit of some sort is really quite immaterial to the feeling, to the relationship between myself and the land.

Part of this is exactly as Munin has described it--we simply see different things, but are looking the same thing. The other part of it is simply the nature of how a relationship works--I love my husband and I trust his profession of love for me...part of this is because he's behaved in a way that I find satisfactory in demonstrating his love for me, and part of this is because I have faith that he loves me (because, lets face it, it is possible to fake words and actions). In the end, a relationship is always based on faith in the relationship (relationships are the ultimate circular logic). But different people want different things out of their relationships, and different types of relationships require different things (different validation).

[Rae'ya]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

Rae'ya, whilst that is true, I am finding it hard to fathom how a person says "yes it's all in my head" then "but I believe that god to be real."

But no one has said that.

I believe the gods are real. But from an intellectual point of view, I accept that I might be wrong and therefore have room in my beliefs for change and evolution of those beliefs.

Thalassa believes (and she can correct me if I'm wrong) that gods are a social construct that is a part of our evolution as a species. She's arguing that 'real' is a multifaceted concept and that gods can have no physical existance but still create 'real' and meaningful experiences for individuals. It's actually not an unusual form of theism... it's just not often explained as eloquently and detailed as Thal does.

Which concept are you struggling with?

[thalassa]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

An example of how something that is all in your head can feel legitimately real: http://www.livescience.com/28015-pen...nics-koro.html

[anunitu]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

Another thing to consider,does your "Soul" reside within your thoughts..?Spirit is not the same as reality of a solid stone..so in a way your connection is within your "Soul" that seems connected to your mind.

[Briton]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

Thanks for the responses guys. Unfortunately I cannot find the thread I was referring to, so I'll just shush about that. Rae, I'm not struggling now, I don't think. I think however I will need to read more, as I am not used to the approaches to defining 'existence' and 'reality' that are being here and that most seem to be quite comfortable using, I just need to get used to it. I am used to a very concrete concept of reality, something is either natural and real, or supernatural and real, ie made of some other stuff than what occurs in the natural world (even if it's intangible like radio waves).

This is clearly me coming from a narrow construct of reality so I will sit this out. I do, however, understand what you mean, it's just I feel like I'm learning a new language!

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

For me I think of the divine in sort of the same light I think of rods. They exist with us and have even been captured on high speed film but are invisible to the naked eye. It was only by chance that photographic evidence happened to be obtained to reveal their existence. Yet they do exist upon the same plain we do but at such a higher speed or vibration rate we typically can not view them. Yet we still do not know from where they come, are they here all the time and where they go once they leave the picture frame. Heck we can't even say if they are multi-dimensional, yet very limited evidence suggest they do exist.

In many ways I think the abode of the gods / goddesses would fall into such a state. A place that may exist upon a different plain or dimension or equally exist upon a different rate of vibration. A place that perhaps under certain conditions we as humans might be capable of being brought to and perhaps changed enough to momentarily exist upon. Of course the inverse of that being our dimension and vibration rate something the divine can match up with an make themselves visible to us enabling them to interact.

Sort of crossing into the macro and micro notion of universe and dimensions or realities that exist all at once.

[thalassa]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

Thanks for the responses guys. Unfortunately I cannot find the thread I was referring to, so I'll just shush about that.

You are probably thinking of the thread before that this was split from where I said that gods come from people (which I meant as opposed to people coming from gods), where I absolutely did not elaborate any further than that statement. And I do think that (and there is evidence that this may be contributory) that we view the gods through specific ultural "lenses"

[Medusa]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

The reality.

There has never been proof of a single living unicorn with a rainbow horn who poops marshmallow rainbow poop. And every sane person when pushed to ask if unicorns are real (not what do you really really wish with all your rainbowbrite heart) will say no. Duh.

There have never been proof of a single living deity.

But you want me to believe it, why again?

[Munin-Hugin]

Re: Reality of gods vs reality of experience

I don't entirely understand this as I'm pretty crappy at mathematical type things, but here. A logical proof that there is a god, or at least the possibility of a god. (Notice hte little "g". A god, any god. Now if one is possible, then more than one is possible, as well.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_ontological_proof