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    #16
    Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

    I wonder what he'd say if you told him ok then prove one doesn't using empirical proof.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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      #17
      Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

      The point is that this is not a discussion between two people on their respective beleifs and their reasons for them. This is religious bullying, whether or not the dude considers himself to *have* a religion or not (and legally, atheism is considered a religion...and atheists should celebrate that, because if it wasn't their religious belief wouldn't have any legal protections).

      My point is that, in a discussion like this, you do not owe this person the benefit of your opinion or experience. In a discussion like this, the best recourse is to walk away (better yet with a witty rejoinder) or to dismiss his premise entirely and refuse to sink to his level.
      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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        #18
        Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

        The art of "shining someone on" is a dying skill.....as are many old school interpersonal skills.
        MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

        all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
        NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
        don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




        sigpic

        my new page here,let me know what you think.


        nothing but the shadow of what was

        witchvox
        http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

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          #19
          Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

          Originally posted by sea-salt View Post

          but I don't think that religious beliefs should always be expected to meet the same standards of evidence that scientific theories require.
          See, here's the thing. I do believe it is expected to not only meet but surpass the same standard of evidence that scientific theories require. Why? I dunno. And that's ok for me. Till I see this evidence to my satisfaction (and by my, I mean just me. What my gut believes. What I know to believe without that eating doubt that things don't add up...to me) then I'm an atheist.

          This isn't to mean religious people are wrong. It's to mean I need proof of my own satisfaction. I don't need to argue it or explain it. Because unless you are the deity giving it to me, I don't care a hoot what a human mind 'believes' in regards to deity. I let those people go on with their satisfaction of proof and I go on with mine.

          It's the Muslim thing to do.
          Satan is my spirit animal

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            #20
            Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

            Originally posted by Hickory67 View Post
            Atheists rely heavily on science to support their position and, often, their points do ring true. No one can argue there is no empirical evidence to prove the existence of deity. However, the absence of evidence is not itself proof of nonexistence. There are still discoveries yet to be made.

            Physicists have posited that multiple dimensions - long believed in spiritual circles - may indeed exist. Theories that various realities exist simultaneously have been tested with positive, if not conclusive, results. Even now, physicists have discovered and are pondering the implications of specific binary code in string theory equations.

            I used to run an exercise in observation and reporting at one of the training facilities I worked at. I would take students and place them in separate corners of a parking lot, with instructions to observe and report on the departure of a specific individual. The reports would all agree that the person walked from the building to his car and departed, but the other details would always differ. There were individual biases which influenced how each student perceived the event, and environmental biases that affected what they saw. None of them were 100% right, but at the same time none were 100% wrong, either.

            The point of the exercise was to show them the reality that no one has the whole picture. Such is the case in the theist-atheist debate.
            Very well said. I've read a lot of articles and discussions on pagan metaphysics that bring up some of the ideas you mentioned, and these have informed a lot of my beliefs about the metaphysical structure and organization of the universe. I'm particularly interested in learning more about string theory, but I am very poorly educated about physics in general so I know I have a lot of learning to do before I could really debate these things with anyone. I've noticed that atheists (or at least the atheists I've been around) rarely discuss concepts like multiple dimensions or realities in terms of religious or spiritual beliefs, and instead just dismiss them wholesale as "new age woo-woo bullshit." Or they just keep repeating "just because multiple dimensions/realities/etc. may exist doesn't mean your afterlife/god(s) exists" - which is asinine because, as you already said, absence of evidence isn't proof of nonexistence.

            Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
            I wonder what he'd say if you told him ok then prove one doesn't using empirical proof.
            The problem with that is that he is a "I do not believe in a god" atheist, not a "there is definitely no god" atheist. :=L:

            Originally posted by thalassa View Post
            The point is that this is not a discussion between two people on their respective beleifs and their reasons for them. This is religious bullying, whether or not the dude considers himself to *have* a religion or not (and legally, atheism is considered a religion...and atheists should celebrate that, because if it wasn't their religious belief wouldn't have any legal protections).

            My point is that, in a discussion like this, you do not owe this person the benefit of your opinion or experience. In a discussion like this, the best recourse is to walk away (better yet with a witty rejoinder) or to dismiss his premise entirely and refuse to sink to his level.
            Agreed. Other people have continued the "discussion" with him and it seems to be headed in the direction of petty name-calling, so I'm taking my leave. I think his head is in the right place by demanding good, sound reasons to believe in things, but his only argument seems to be "your evidence isn't good enough for me so therefore you're all delusional," even after multiple people have explained WHY we don't hinge our beliefs on empirical evidence of the divine, the afterlife, or anything else.

            Originally posted by Medusa View Post
            See, here's the thing. I do believe it is expected to not only meet but surpass the same standard of evidence that scientific theories require. Why? I dunno. And that's ok for me. Till I see this evidence to my satisfaction (and by my, I mean just me. What my gut believes. What I know to believe without that eating doubt that things don't add up...to me) then I'm an atheist.

            This isn't to mean religious people are wrong. It's to mean I need proof of my own satisfaction. I don't need to argue it or explain it. Because unless you are the deity giving it to me, I don't care a hoot what a human mind 'believes' in regards to deity. I let those people go on with their satisfaction of proof and I go on with mine.

            It's the Muslim thing to do.
            I feel the exact same way. I need to experience something myself to believe it. For example, I have never experienced the presence of a guardian angel or a demon so I have no reason to believe that they exist, never mind how many billions of people believe in them. On the other hand, I do believe that I have experienced the presence of multiple deities, so I believe that they exist.

            I was an atheist until I had these experiences, so I'm not at all surprised that you would demand the same sort of first-hand evidence to change your views. And I think that's how it should be. If a deity really wants to convert an atheist, then that deity should be able to manifest whatever evidence would convince the atheist they they exist - or else they're probably a pretty wimpy deity.

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              #21
              Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

              I had a professor in a college religion class who said that 97% of all religious people would be certifiably insane if you asked someone outside of their belief system to make the call, so I can understand where this friend of yours is coming from.

              I also had a mentor who used to be a nun, and she said that the real test of a religion is whether you would still practice it even if you knew, beyond a doubt, that your gods didn't exist. I would continue to practice my religion, because I find the morality it teaches to be wise and helpful in my life and the lives around me. So proving the existence of my gods to someone is kind of beside the point. You don't have to be a religious person in order to be a good person, and I'm not trying to convert anyone else to my way of thinking. I just think that the philosophy which I have found in my religion is a good one, and so I follow it. Along the way, I have had personal experiences of my gods but it's nothing I could prove to another person, and I'm ok with that.

              On the other hand, I couldn't even prove to another person that I exist. I and everyone around me could be a figment of someone or something's imagination, or just an artifact of how someone's senses are interpreting the world around them. Maybe none of us exist. Maybe our thoughts are an illusion. Any approach to the world starts with some assumptions about which senses and sources to trust for information. But usually my conversations with atheists don't get that far. I find they're usually satisfied, or perhaps disgusted, with the previous answer and then I'm on my way.
              With kind regards,
              Banu

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                #22
                Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

                My beliefs are only as reasonable as others agree with them upon their own realization or direct experience of them. I believe in just about everything - transcendent spiritual entities we call gods, angles, demons, fae, et cetera, that watch, tempt, protect, and guide us and that we have origins of an advanced technological extraterrestrial nature, and that our psychic faculties are from these ancient astronaut doctors through genetic manipulation or some sort of trick played on the space-time continuum (or gifts from spirits). Although I have not seen it, maybe because it is an ancient way of being, I even believe in physical shifting, considering I have experienced the power of one shaman, imagine what a group can do? Energetic healing is basically changing the molecular structure of sick cells to healthy cells, just take that method and multiply it 1000 fold and you have physical shifting, theoretically.

                The above sounds quite out there, insane, ridiculous, but so does the idea of magic, self-healing, and divination, yet many of us here have experienced each in their own way. I cannot expect others to believe what I believe but I also do my best to offer clues to where they can find the reason I believe in such things. I would star gaze with my then unbelieving father in extraterrestrial life, and months would pass with nothing, but there was about a month where we saw strange UFO phenomena and random occurrences since. His mind was open to the possibility more so than before. If someone seeks an argument for the sake of calling me stupid, I throw a psi attack that explodes their brain and leave the mess for the hell hounds to digest as I fly away.

                On this forum, I read a post of a practitioner who had an experience with Hecate that only I thought I had, but the way they explained their meeting was exactly the way I experienced mine, and neither of us know one another. The myths and magic books that explain working with Hecate never mentioned such an occurrence, so how can two people that have never met experience the exact same communion? I am sure their are explanations a scientist or neurologist could explain, but it is still a mystery, because anal probing every facet of the abstract and mysterious will never lead to the final truth - faith and reason both exist for a reason and can cancel each counter each other, although science is a bit better at informing a wider audience.

                We are human, we each have a unique way of experiencing this life, whether it be mundane, magical, or mystical and ways in which we understand and utilize the power of our consciousness, whatever that may be. It doesn't matter what other people think of our beliefs as long as they cause no harm to us or others. If I believe something and it causes me to hallucinate extraterrestrials sticking needles in me while I sleep and I call it abduction, I have a problem, or if the Faerie Queen asks me abduct children to make Child Stew, then I have a problem, but extraterrestrials always ask before they take me upon their star ships and the Faerie Queen quite eating children hundreds of years ago.

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                  #23
                  Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

                  Lol. 97% of ALL people are probably crazy in one aspect or another.
                  Satan is my spirit animal

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                    #24
                    Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

                    I thought it was all people were 97% crazy ...
                    I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them ... John Bernard Books


                    Indian Chief 'Two Eagles' was asked by a white government official; "You have observed the white man for 90 years. You've seen his wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and the damage he's done."

                    The Chief nodded in agreement.

                    The official continued; "Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?"

                    The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied.. "When white man find land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine Man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex."

                    Then the chief leaned back and smiled; "Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."



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                      #25
                      Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

                      image.jpg

                      Nietzsche rules.
                      Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                        #26
                        Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

                        Insanity is what keeps this world spinning. If we weren't insane the overlords of chaos would never have gifted us with mad scientists like Tesla, Einstein, or Kurzweil, nor given us a glimpse of the only true future through DC and Marvel Comics, and the thousands of anime's about my future incarnations (Hyberbolic Time Chamber, here I come!).

                        No, but seriously, I really do think that those of us with enough crazy (97% sure does sound accurate) are the ones that create - or at least have a helping hand in - creating a more beautiful existence.

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                          #27
                          Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

                          without the crazies, the sane would be bored ... and maybe go crazy ...
                          I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them ... John Bernard Books


                          Indian Chief 'Two Eagles' was asked by a white government official; "You have observed the white man for 90 years. You've seen his wars and his technological advances. You've seen his progress, and the damage he's done."

                          The Chief nodded in agreement.

                          The official continued; "Considering all these events, in your opinion, where did the white man go wrong?"

                          The Chief stared at the government official for over a minute and then calmly replied.. "When white man find land, Indians running it, no taxes, no debt, plenty buffalo, plenty beaver, clean water. Women did all the work, Medicine Man free. Indian man spend all day hunting and fishing; all night having sex."

                          Then the chief leaned back and smiled; "Only white man dumb enough to think he could improve system like that."



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                            #28
                            Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

                            Hmmmmmmmmmmmm,eyes the 97% crazy people...you are all trying to make me paranoid,you damn dirty reptilians. You can't hide that tongue...and the catching flies.
                            MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                            all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                            NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                            don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                            sigpic

                            my new page here,let me know what you think.


                            nothing but the shadow of what was

                            witchvox
                            http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

                              If most of the world were crazy then that would be the norm and only the sane would be crazy...
                              The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
                              I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

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                                #30
                                Re: Are your beliefs "reasonable"?

                                I can see why an atheist would think that believing in theism is unreasonable given the argument he presented. My brother gives the same point of view every time it's brought up in our family. Our parent's are christian (the kind that cherry pick the bible to match their right wing opinions) as is my oldest sister, my other sister just kind of goes with the flow and believes whatever her current partner believes, my brother is an atheist, and I'm wiccan. I argue that the idea of one, singular god makes no sense while the christians argue that I'm a sinner for not believing. My brother always chimes in with "How can you believe in something that you can't feel, see, or guarantee is there?" In the end reason doesn't really factor into the discussion when you have faith in what your beliefs. Spirituality, faith, whatever you want to call it doesn't necessarily need reason in order for it to help those who have it. Personally, I believe in magic and nature because the only time I feel at ease or like something bigger than me is protecting me is when I am in the magic of nature.
                                (user formerly known as beckly_freckly)

                                You are a little soul carrying around a corpse.

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