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    #61
    Re: attacks on Paris

    Yeah, I really was not clear on my "life is precious" comment. Even my friends are confused by my views toward life. I won't harm animals, I help people when I can. When it comes to people like these extremists I feel that they have no right to live. I have seen up close what they do, and all the failed attempts to reason with these people. They have no place in this world, same goes for pedophiles, rapists, and their ilk.

    I don't care why they are the way they are, many of them are holding on to several hundred year old grudges. I am concerned with what they are now. Violence sucks, I wish it was not needed. It is...

    "The world is not entirely governed by logic. Life itself involves some kind of violence and we have to choose the path of least violence."
    Mahatma Gandhi

    Comment

      #62
      Re: attacks on Paris

      Originally posted by unseen1 View Post
      Yeah, I really was not clear on my "life is precious" comment. Even my friends are confused by my views toward life. I won't harm animals, I help people when I can. When it comes to people like these extremists I feel that they have no right to live. I have seen up close what they do, and all the failed attempts to reason with these people. They have no place in this world, same goes for pedophiles, rapists, and their ilk.

      I don't care why they are the way they are, many of them are holding on to several hundred year old grudges. I am concerned with what they are now. Violence sucks, I wish it was not needed. It is...

      "The world is not entirely governed by logic. Life itself involves some kind of violence and we have to choose the path of least violence."
      Mahatma Gandhi
      Thought experiment: You've got a one time opportunity to push the "clean slate" button and cause every person affiliated with a terrorist organization for any cause on every continent to cease existing. *poof* Just like that. Of course, you will do that, right? If no other changes are made, will there be more terrorists in the near future?

      "No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." -- Niels Bohr

      Comment

        #63
        Re: attacks on Paris

        Of course there will be more terrorists in the future. There will always arise a cause, be it social, political, economic, or religious, that folks will feel strongly about. If the injustice that they perceive continues for long enough, they will eventually take more and more drastic steps to push their agenda. Chaos is inevitable. In fact, some would say that order is the aberration, while chaos is the constant.

        Comment

          #64
          Re: attacks on Paris

          Originally posted by nbdy View Post
          Thought experiment: You've got a one time opportunity to push the "clean slate" button and cause every person affiliated with a terrorist organization for any cause on every continent to cease existing. *poof* Just like that. Of course, you will do that, right? If no other changes are made, will there be more terrorists in the near future?
          Since not all terrorists are actually affiliated with an organization, sure.

          What won't happen anywhere near as fast is an organization as capable as any of the ones you just allowed me to poof out of existence. My poof button just wiped out logistical networks, institutional knowledge, leadership, recruiting systems, training systems, everything. The successor organizations have to start from scratch and while it can certainly be done, it takes time and unless something helps out (which is more likely than I care to admit) there will be several false starts that get stomped on hard because people won't know what not to do.
          life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

          Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

          "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

          John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

          "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

          Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


          Comment

            #65
            Re: attacks on Paris

            Originally posted by MaskedOne View Post
            Since not all terrorists are actually affiliated with an organization, sure.

            What won't happen anywhere near as fast is an organization as capable as any of the ones you just allowed me to poof out of existence. My poof button just wiped out logistical networks, institutional knowledge, leadership, recruiting systems, training systems, everything. The successor organizations have to start from scratch and while it can certainly be done, it takes time and unless something helps out (which is more likely than I care to admit) there will be several false starts that get stomped on hard because people won't know what not to do.
            Oh, name the parameters for the *poof* button that you think would be effective, but it can only involve the instant removal of human beings, not their rewiring.

            - - - Updated - - -

            Originally posted by Munin-Hugin View Post
            Of course there will be more terrorists in the future. There will always arise a cause, be it social, political, economic, or religious, that folks will feel strongly about. If the injustice that they perceive continues for long enough, they will eventually take more and more drastic steps to push their agenda. Chaos is inevitable. In fact, some would say that order is the aberration, while chaos is the constant.
            But here's the creepy thing --- there isn't always a "cause." Consider the regularity of school shootings where the shooters are simply enamored of the process rather than any cause. Fascinating in-depth article about it if interested: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...ds-of-violence. This is terrrorism, too.

            "No, no, you're not thinking; you're just being logical." -- Niels Bohr

            Comment

              #66
              Re: attacks on Paris

              There aren't any. Or more accurately, there aren't any parameters that are effective and that I'd still consider using it. I'm more than happy to accept poofing the organizations anyway. It'll take a while for them to come back and I'm not sure all of them could since the events allowing their successful formation won't all be there in all cases. I'm a semi-practical sort. Several years without large terrorist groups is a win. Several years without large terrorist groups + a faint hope that not all of the poofed organization reconstitute is an even better win.
              life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

              Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

              "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

              John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

              "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

              Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


              Comment

                #67
                Re: attacks on Paris

                Originally posted by nbdy View Post
                But here's the creepy thing --- there isn't always a "cause." Consider the regularity of school shootings where the shooters are simply enamored of the process rather than any cause. Fascinating in-depth article about it if interested: http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/20...ds-of-violence. This is terrrorism, too.
                Well, by your statement of "every person affiliated with a terrorist organization for any cause", those who are the shooters you mentioned would not be affected, as they are acting in a solo capacity or in an unorganized grouping, therefore they do not qualify as an organization.

                But, also take into consideration that I said the cause may be social. While it may look like these people are doing it "just because", there has always been found an underlying reasoning, albeit seemingly insane to us. Still, that is a reason. Feelings of rejection, nonacceptance, being the outsider, loneliness, or even a sense of power and destuction ... they may not be "causes" in the sense of an ideology to right for, but existing to bring about the attack is still the point.

                Comment

                  #68
                  Re: attacks on Paris

                  You wanna get rid of terrorism?

                  Get rid of humans.

                  Problem solved.
                  Satan is my spirit animal

                  Comment

                    #69
                    Re: attacks on Paris

                    It's all very sad and horrendously complicated, feels like it's a war which is going to drag on interminably. I missed one of the London 7/7 tube bombings by 24 hours and I am due to visit London again next week...ho hum.
                    Once a man, like the sea I raged;
                    Once a woman, like the earth I gave;
                    And there is in fact more earth than sea.
                    Genesis lyric

                    Comment

                      #70
                      Re: attacks on Paris

                      Well, I've been accused of being a bleeding heart liberal so many times that one more won't matter. So here goes:

                      I do not believe that dropping bombs on Syria is going to solve this problem. It will kill innocent civilians, yes. It may even catch a few terrorists. But it won't wipe them out.

                      It's a pity that so much money is always available for war but very little to create peace. Terrorism feeds on perceived injustices. It has to be starved of these, and this is a long drawn out process.
                      www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                      Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

                      Comment

                        #71
                        Re: attacks on Paris

                        ISIL actually has a base of operations, and a military. While I agree that destroying those will not end their terrorism (it will drive it underground) I don't know what the other alternative is. Doing nothing will do nothing. I need to hear other options because I can't think of them myself.
                        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                        Comment

                          #72
                          Re: attacks on Paris

                          On one hand, I agree with you, but on the other hand, I don't think that the psychology of supporting groups like Islamic State is all that different than supporting groups like the Nazis. Although people start those groups out of extremist ideologies, most people who end up flocking to them don't start off that way. They do it out of desperation or straight-out fear.

                          Comment

                            #73
                            Re: attacks on Paris

                            Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
                            It's a pity that so much money is always available for war but very little to create peace. Terrorism feeds on perceived injustices. It has to be starved of these, and this is a long drawn out process.
                            I agree with your general point, and historically terrorism has always been "defeated" by political solutions. But what are the political goals of Islamic terrorism? It seems like they want to destroy western culture or something?
                            Once a man, like the sea I raged;
                            Once a woman, like the earth I gave;
                            And there is in fact more earth than sea.
                            Genesis lyric

                            Comment

                              #74
                              Re: attacks on Paris

                              As I have read it is apocalyptic in its nature,based on Islamic prophesy about a lost Imam. Kinda like the Christian destruction of the Islamic temple and rebuilding of Solomon's temple. All for kicking off the end of days...hard to deal with in a sane fashion when trying to win the peace.

                              Part of their stated goal is to draw all the "Crusader" country's into battle,as that is part of their prophesy.

                              Religion for the end of days Alex....

                              - - - Updated - - -

                              Kind of from their very own lips..this site is one-islam.org,so go figure.
                              Here it be.
                              MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

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                                #75
                                Re: attacks on Paris

                                Originally posted by anunitu View Post
                                As I have read it is apocalyptic in its nature,based on Islamic prophesy about a lost Imam. Kinda like the Christian destruction of the Islamic temple and rebuilding of Solomon's temple. All for kicking off the end of days...hard to deal with in a sane fashion when trying to win the peace.

                                Part of their stated goal is to draw all the "Crusader" country's into battle,as that is part of their prophesy.

                                Religion for the end of days Alex....

                                - - - Updated - - -

                                Kind of from their very own lips..this site is one-islam.org,so go figure.
                                Here it be.
                                I read that too, and it made a very compelling case for where the philosophy of the leaders stems from, but it doesn't really do much to explain the psychology of why people FOLLOW said philosophies. IS followers follow apocalyptic, fundamentalist Islamic movements because of where they are. Take the same people and put them in poverty in the deep south, and perhaps they become fundamentalist Christians. Take the same people and put them in Germany in 1930, and perhaps you have a bunch of fascists. People in Syria or Iraq aren't fundamentally radical by nature, no more than people who follow any other extremist view are. Extremist movements stem from stressful situations. Leaders take advantage of that to gain power or push whatever crazy philosophy they cooked up. You can totally deal with that in a sane fashion. It's not easy, but it's possible. I think that overall, countries that are accepting refugees are going in the right direction. Show people who need refuge from the horrible war and violence that there is an alternative to crazy.

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