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    #31
    Re: Are we taken seriously?

    Paganism's image has suffered from several events problems in its strife to become accepted as a serious religion. Excluding what makes us as an individual choose a religions, there are factors that make people take a religion seriously. For example the Jewish religion is characterized unity. Their religion is especially defined by a holy book and there is a strong unity between Jewish people (despite some diversity which happens to all religions) and a long historical tradition which gives it the test of time. Christianity and Islam both have a sacred text and also have a huge following with Islam catching up to Christianity in numbers. There is diversity among both Christian and Islam subgroups but they all have still have an identifiable Icon or reference so they can identify with. and have both a large following (two of the largest in the worlsd) and sacred texts to identifiy with. Buddism also has a large following and long history although it has a less clear unifying identity other than the Buddha image however there is enough uniformity of the beliefs for someone to recognize something as budism. Hinduism has a long history and sacred tests along with identifiable deities and a large following.

    Now compare this to Paganism of today. Paganism resurfaced much later with controversy about whether there ever was a continuous pagan community which could hand down the rituals and beliefs. In view of our updated understanding Paganism has had to be recreated and in this process created a staggering number of different paths almost to the point of a pathway for each person. So it is a small group although growing with a short history with almost no unity other than it is Non-christian with the exceptions of blended christian and pagan beliefs and no sacred text or teachings which are in common. There is an image created by some that anything goes. This is wonderful for individuality but when compared to other religions gives the appearance of a non-serious religion with a limited expectancy to persist. There have been some efforts to create a more tangible identity with organizations like the pagan federation but the current movement at least remains very fractional and extremely resistant to define paganism in any way. Whether good or bad these things are made in harder to see paganism as a serious religion as Christianity, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, and Hinduism. This is the challenge that those identifying themselves as pagan have to accept. The irony is that paganism is as old as any religion and I believe has more in common than we allow it to have. If pagans can identify more with its past (why call yourself pagan if you want nothing from the past otherwise it becomes new new age or some other identification), and find some common things to identify with while maintaining its characteristic tolerance for diversity it may be taken more serious in the future. This is at least some ideas I have on the matter.

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      #32
      Re: Are we taken seriously?

      Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
      All I know is if you look like your heading to a Ren fair or costume party then you'll be treated as such and your beliefs seen and evaluated against that. The same applies to the "Teen" revolt stage and so many teens claiming to be pagan. It's seen as a stage and the person will grow out of it which percentage wise is probably not that wrong of a conclusion.
      I sorta agree with that. When I was all Marilyn Manson and tattoos and working at Hot Topic, everyone was like yeah, it's a phase. She's not a Satanist for realz.

      I'm 44, shop at Old Navy, wear Minnie Mouse jammies, but people actually now take it seriously.
      Satan is my spirit animal

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        #33
        Re: Are we taken seriously?

        Originally posted by Medusa View Post
        I sorta agree with that. When I was all Marilyn Manson and tattoos and working at Hot Topic, everyone was like yeah, it's a phase. She's not a Satanist for realz.

        I'm 44, shop at Old Navy, wear Minnie Mouse jammies, but people actually now take it seriously.
        Yep my Aunt keeps telling people its just a phase I am going through even though I haven't grown out of it in 13 years. I think shes still hoping.
        "If you want to know what a man is like, take a good look at how he treats his inferiors, not his equals." -- Sirius Black

        "Time is an illusion, lunch time doubly so."-- Ford Prefect

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          #34
          Re: Are we taken seriously?

          Originally posted by kalynraye View Post
          Yep my Aunt keeps telling people its just a phase I am going through even though I haven't grown out of it in 13 years. I think shes still hoping.
          Heh. Mom told me I was going through a phase when I told her I was queer at fifteen. It's been almost 20 years. I think she got over that idea.
          Army of Darkness: Guardians of the Chat

          Honorary Nord.

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            #35
            Re: Are we taken seriously?

            I tend to think part of the issue regarding the "I didn't change..." statements is its always a singular position. Can't even count the number of teens I knew as a teen or later teens that actually stayed the course as it where. So if I state "I didn't change" doesn't change the fact the majority did drop it. Granted it doesn't help the few who didn't change though that in and of itself is also an issue. It's like say person A claims to be pagan yet what is their trail like. The teen Wiccan phase, then followed by some other phase followed often by yet another phase. Then each phase as different from their previous practices as to bare little to no resemblance. Yet the constant profession that they are Pagan because there is no defined structure of what pagan is for the most part.

            Which as was stated above further tends to paint paganism as a non-real spiritual / religious pathway. Which gets further diluted in that being called a pagan in and of itself doesn't infer a spiritual / religious pathway to begin with other than the generic nature worshipper. Which might still tie it to its earlier "Hippie" roots before it became conflated with the feminist movement of the later 60's and early 70's. All of which still get viewed many times as "Fads" though some as extremist fads such as the popular usage of Femnazi to describe some feminist movements.

            Then I think one has to consider the many "They are not Pagan" due to Christian baggage. How often do we hear "Satanist" are not pagan and hold that Christian notion of Satanist being evil and such. Heaven forbid you bring up the Satanic Witch which seems to automatically generate the "Witches don't believe in Satan!" statements even as the fact Satanic Witches did and do exist.
            I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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              #36
              Re: Are we taken seriously?

              Paganism can never be strictly defined because it never was to begin with. It had been in the public sphere for centuries as 'those other various beliefs'. For that reason I wouldn't identify as pagan other than to other pagans who are fully aware of the variety. Otherwise people, the general public, would try and draw assumptions in order to understand me quickly, only to misunderstand me altogether. Paganism cannot be taken seriously as a belief because it isn't A belief. World religions handle differences by saying "yeah, we have different sects and approaches, but we all agree that..."

              You can't do that with paganism. It's not a thing, that is, it is far too nebulous. I don't want to be taken seriously 'as a pagan' because it doesn't mean anything in and of itself. I don't know what to call myself. An ancestralist? A British animist? I don't know, but not pagan.
              I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
              Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
              But that day you know I left my money
              And I thought of you only
              All that copper glowing fine

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                #37
                Re: Are we taken seriously?

                Originally posted by Briton View Post
                Paganism can never be strictly defined because it never was to begin with.
                Never is such a strong word.

                Language is an organic and socially responsive thing. Basically, when a people have need of a label, a label is selected and used. If the need for the label is common enough in a society, the usage spreads, often sporadically and inconsistently at first, but more commonly and more consistently over time.

                The Pagan label is currently being used, obviously. Older or traditional applications of the term are less important than current usage. Terms are also context dependent, so hardly any term has a singular meaning anyway.

                It does seem that the diversity within the current population of people who like the label for themselves probably works against a coherent and common usage in the wider culture. I think the determining factor in the long run will be if the wider culture needs the label to understand itself, so to speak. That might play out any number of ways, but as a grouping label, it's reasonable to consider that the more people who use the term come to agree on what it means, the more coherent the term will become for the whole culture.

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                  #38
                  Re: Are we taken seriously?

                  Originally posted by Briton View Post
                  Paganism cannot be taken seriously as a belief because it isn't A belief. World religions handle differences by saying "yeah, we have different sects and approaches, but we all agree that..."

                  You can't do that with paganism. It's not a thing, that is, it is far too nebulous. I don't want to be taken seriously 'as a pagan' because it doesn't mean anything in and of itself.
                  polythetic classificationKathryn Sullivan cool), I drive a Honda Accord (but I really want a Karmann Ghia), I'm incredibly upper-middle class (though I live in a upper-lower/lower-middle class neighborhood because city=expensive), my kids do gymnastics and go to music lessons and are on the honor roll (and they don't have names like Clover or Moonsong), and I shop at Target or the mall (or online, unless I'm at the thrift store). When I tell someone I'm Pagan, the biggest reaction I normally get (here in the Southern Bible Belt of the Religious Right) is "Really? I never would have expected that." More often than not, its followed up by something like, "Can I ask you about that? I've known other Pagans, but...________enter some comment about how they didn't seem like the sort of person one wanted an opinion from_____. You seem so...____I've heard everything from "normal" to "put together" to "intelligent"____."

                  If we want to be taken seriously, we need to take ourselves seriously...and one another seriously. I man not (as an example) agree with Rae'ya's beliefs, but I certainly take them just as seriously as I take my own, and respect and accept them as part of the diversity of Paganisms.
                  Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                    #39
                    Re: Are we taken seriously?

                    To go back to the original question: Are we taken seriously?
                    Probably not, but then, it may not matter
                    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                      #40
                      Re: Are we taken seriously?

                      Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
                      To go back to the original question: Are we taken seriously?
                      Probably not, but then, it may not matter
                      I think it does matter...

                      I don't live in a bubble. I engage in a world outside of Pagan culture. I have a job, my kids go to school, I have neighbors, and family, and friends. Sure, I can tell people to sod off (my favorite phrase ever)...but if you tell too many people that, who is left when the stuffing hits the fan? Pagans have to deal with lawyers, and doctors, and bankers, and co-workers, and social workers, and the police, and the tax people (just as often as Christians). Its all well and good to say that something *shouldn't* matter or that we shouldn't care about what people think about what we do or believe, but its not terribly pragmatic when the guy determining whether or not you buy a house thinks that you are a fruitcake on the basis of your religious label.
                      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                      sigpic

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                        #41
                        Re: Are we taken seriously?

                        If I take my own personal beliefs seriously,then that is enough for me,and also if I respect others beliefs and would not try to downgrade their faith.
                        Enough for me just to understand everyone has the RIGHT to believe what they will.
                        MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                        all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                        NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                        don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                        sigpic

                        my new page here,let me know what you think.


                        nothing but the shadow of what was

                        witchvox
                        http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

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                          #42
                          Re: Are we taken seriously?

                          Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                          And sure, I could say something about the funny hats and robes and wands and cauldrons and whatever other accouterments we have. The drinking horns and pentacles the size of hubcaps and crystals this and that. I'm sure they don't help...but not because there is anything wrong with them. But because we are ashamed of them. We don't own it as part of the culture...
                          It's not like Catholics (just for example) don't have their own funny weird garb, like the Bishop's and Pope's funny hats, or an enormous assortment of strange or weird art and symbols scrawled all over everything.

                          The assessment that "...because we are ashamed of them. We don't own it as part of the culture..." seems to be spot on.
                          Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                            #43
                            Re: Are we taken seriously?

                            The people I've mentioned paganism to recently are sort of interested but have no idea what it's about. I think that's because there aren't many pagans around so most people haven't met one.
                            Once a man, like the sea I raged;
                            Once a woman, like the earth I gave;
                            And there is in fact more earth than sea.
                            Genesis lyric

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                              #44
                              Re: Are we taken seriously?

                              I also think it's important to know what some of your (the general your)other beliefs and opinions are before I figure if I take you seriously. My friend on fb just posted about how we take in Syrian refugees and they bomb us. And then when he talks about other things like The Thing remake was scary (these are actual statements form him)then I pretty much don't take anything he believes or thinks seriously. If you are an idiot in general, no one will take you serious. And if you find no one ever takes you serious, you are probably an idiot. And what's worse is that means pretty much all of us are idiots at some point in our lives.

                              yay.
                              Satan is my spirit animal

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                                #45
                                Re: Are we taken seriously?

                                My name is Anu,and I am a recovering idiot......

                                - - - Updated - - -

                                A question,though it may be a bit off topic...in many religious groups the repetition of certain things(words or movements) seems to be common. My question is what is the repeated words or actions supposed to accomplish? also Christian repetition(Hail Mary,and our Fathers) seem to me to be like "spellwork" in the pagan world..Just my being curious about this subject. Not in any way disparaging of any religious practice.

                                - - - Updated - - -

                                Also I do understand that in some religious practice repetition is used to enter a trance state(whirling dervish in Islamic Mystics)
                                MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                                all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                                NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                                don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                                sigpic

                                my new page here,let me know what you think.


                                nothing but the shadow of what was

                                witchvox
                                http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

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