Are we taken seriously?

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Are we taken seriously?

I think it does matter...

I don't live in a bubble. I engage in a world outside of Pagan culture. I have a job, my kids go to school, I have neighbors, and family, and friends. Sure, I can tell people to sod off (my favorite phrase ever)...but if you tell too many people that, who is left when the stuffing hits the fan? Pagans have to deal with lawyers, and doctors, and bankers, and co-workers, and social workers, and the police, and the tax people (just as often as Christians). Its all well and good to say that something *shouldn't* matter or that we shouldn't care about what people think about what we do or believe, but its not terribly pragmatic when the guy determining whether or not you buy a house thinks that you are a fruitcake on the basis of your religious label.

I think this is something that happens more in the US than in my part of the world. We seem to be a bit more of a secular society (most of the time, anyway). Politicians often claim the UK is a 'Christian country' but to be honest, it's usually taken with a dose of salt.

[Briton]

Re: Are we taken seriously?

I think this is something that happens more in the US than in my part of the world. We seem to be a bit more of a secular society (most of the time, anyway). Politicians often claim the UK is a 'Christian country' but to be honest, it's usually taken with a dose of salt.

Speaking of which...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/bishops-in-house-of-lords-should-make-way-for-leaders-of-other-religions-a6762821.html

[Spiny Norman]

Re: Are we taken seriously?

Speaking of which...http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a6762821.html

Quite right too. Or even better make the House of Lords an elected body instead of the feudal anachronism it currently is.

[Briton]

Re: Are we taken seriously?

Quite right too. Or even better make the House of Lords an elected body instead of the feudal anachronism it currently is.

Not wanting to steer the thread of topic for too long, but I disagree. All religious positions should be removed from the House of Lords. The lack of democracy in the HoL is actually its one advantage. It does not need to pander to populism, nor does it gain from trying to stir up fear amongst the people (something the Tories have down to a T).

Rather, they shouldn't vote on any bills, but just play an advisory role. The HoL is very orderly and sensible, unlike the baying apes of that chimp's tea party that is the House of Commons, there are a lot of wise people with a lot of life experience in the HoL and we need that. However, tell them to buck their ideas up and cut their expenses or risk complete disassembling.

[Spiny Norman]

Re: Are we taken seriously?

All religious positions should be removed from the House of Lords.

No, just replace the bishops with Buddhists and pagans.

[Ula]

Re: Are we taken seriously?

I got the impression the picture was a joke making fun of pagans. Does it matter if I am taken seriously? Only when it comes to the government restricting me.

[DragonsFriend]

Re: Are we taken seriously?

The military took us seriously when we finally got the addition of a grave marker for those of Pagan faiths. That is quite an accomplishment fo a group of religions less than a century old.
Some will never take other religions seriously and other will. There is enough internal lack of acceptance within the Pagan community that we shouldn't even consider the rest of the world taking us seriously. In my mind we should "fix" our own back yard before expecting it from others.

[Spiny Norman]

Re: Are we taken seriously?

There is enough internal lack of acceptance within the Pagan community that we shouldn't even consider the rest of the world taking us seriously. In my mind we should "fix" our own back yard before expecting it from others.

Could you be more specific? Who isn't accepting who?

[DragonsFriend]

Re: Are we taken seriously?

Within the community that I grew up in the BTW did not accept the "Wiccans" that had not been initiated in the BTW. By that I mean they didn't think of them as "real". The "older generation" of witches fought the acceptance of Wicca as a religion to the point that when the ATC was granted church status it was completely rejected by the most of the community. The bulk of Pagans see "fluffy bunnies" as pretenders and not really pagan. Only a few of the trads accepted anything that was not founded on the "Gardnerian" structure and "family trads" like the Italian Stregharia were shunned as "unsupported gibberish".
Some trads would not participate in any group activities that were attended by other groups that they did not see as "real" or acceptable. Even the Pagan Pride group was less than well received for the first two years after I incorporated it in the Seattle area.
Things are changing but there is still a lot of separation within the different Pagan sects.

[Spiny Norman]

Re: Are we taken seriously?

Things are changing but there is still a lot of separation within the different Pagan sects.

These may be inevitable growing pains in a relatively young tradition. Buddhism is also very diverse and pluralistic, but has had a lot longer to come to terms with the differences and identify common goals, so there is less sectarianism.

Presumably there are some things which all pagans agree on? Or some basic common principles?

[DragonsFriend]

Re: Are we taken seriously?

There are several groups that have attempted to find commonalities in Pagan traditions but they have not been widely accepted. They also typically exclude any mention of Satan. (trying like crazy to rid the Pagan community of all references to Satanic worship). I think the only way that Pagans will ever find commonality is to lose the mystery concept that is so key to most initiatory practices. Don't hold your breath waiting for that to happen.

[anunitu]

Re: Are we taken seriously?

Sounds so much like the MANY many many different sects of Christianity that we have here. everyone and their brother has a slightly different take on Jesus and the Christian God.

- - - Updated - - -

Seems like 33,000 Denominations,as this site describes.

Sauce

So,Pagans may be diverse,but really not much more than other "Major" religious beliefs.

[divinemath]

Re: Are we taken seriously?

To put it bluntly and unpopularly... No.

I'd considered Pagans far less reviled nowadays (Unless you live in the most fundamentalist of Christian areas, in which case you should attend church. It's entertaining.), but, in turn, this has given rise to the image of the 'fluffy bunny wiccan', where Paganism is seen as a cheap way of rebellion. I'm a senior in High School, and I've seen many kids proscribe to Luciferian and Wiccan religious faiths for a little bit due to their edgy appeal. Except for that one girl who was apparently a 'fairy wiccan'. Is that a thing? Hell, even in Middle School, I proudly half-assed worshiped Odin... Kinda.

The thing about paganism is that it's inevitably seen as weird by traditionalists, seen as not going far enough by people with an interest in history (Gaiman had something funny about it in American gods, where Odin himself or somesuch asks a Goddess movement follower if she's ever ran into the sea, babbling, naked, and joyous, and she gets offended and huffs that 'Not all pagans are like that!'.), and seen as prime poseur material by skeptics who see that a lot of Wicca rituals started in the fifties, and that Asatru most likely isn't close to actual Norse Polytheist worship due to the lack of written info on their rituals, and that Satanists are just edgy shits...

In my opinion... There's reasons why Pagans aren't taken seriously. But at least we're not being hanged or accused of murdering infants. Also, in my opinion... Do what makes you feel good. Just don't end up CENSORED yourself over trying to give the gods a reacharound, have fun, and if you feel the urge to sacrifice goats or run about naked, do it. Make sure it's your own damn goat and you're on private property, though. Also, don't mix politics with religion. You sigh when Christians do it, you cringe when Muslims do it, so why assume your Mother Goddess is going to give you extra fiat in a political debate? Ask Buer if you have to. :3c We need to create an image of pagans as people that are serious about their faith, not just children and grown-up children playing wizards and witches, but also friendly, open and cheerful. Give to your community, not just your heathen community, start up community service projects while being open about your faith, I dunno, start being awesome citizens while being awesome pagans, and people will respect that. I guess. I dunno. I can't predict people, otherwise I'd be day trading.

/rant

[Spiny Norman]

Re: Are we taken seriously?

I think the only way that Pagans will ever find commonality is to lose the mystery concept that is so key to most initiatory practices.

Could you say what the "mystery concept" is?

[R. Eugene Laughlin]

Re: Are we taken seriously?

Could you say what the "mystery concept" is?

It's the idea of ancient priesthoods (Egyptian, Greek, Roman, etc.), presumably dedicated to the deeper meaning (secrets if you will) of a particular mythical story line and its associated interactive deities, into which one had to be initiated and trained. Google up "Dionysian Mysteries," "Eliusinian Mysteries," "Egyptian Mystery Schools," "Roman Mystery Religions," and such. Early in your searches you'll get a little history and a lot of contemporary attitude.

It's a good bet that many of these schools explored their respective mysteries through sex. But that aside (or not)...

Gardner seems to have intended to package the essence of the mystery cult concept with Wicca. Two of the sources that most assume inspired him include the Golden Ass and Crowley's Golden Twigs, a collection of short stories reflecting his take on Frazer's Golden Bough, which was also undoubtedly among Gardner's sources. Here's the most circulated selection from Golden Twigs.

That's the wellspring from which the Neopaganism of the 1960's and 70's sprang.