The three centres of Paganism

[Riothamus12]

Re: The three centres of Paganism

Please have a look at this blog and let me know whether you think it's an accurate overview of Paganism. And if not, why not?
The three centres discussed are self-centred, earth-centred and deity-centred. From what I've learned so far it seems to make sense, but what do you think?

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/allergi...s-of-paganism/

This definitely describes my own framework pretty well. As the three focuses are mastering and realizing the self, balancing the self with all other creatures on earth, and pursuing Divine wisdom and maintaining a relationship with the Divine.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: The three centres of Paganism

So is neo-paganism basically a modern invention, or does it have any historical basis?

There are some who would lay the idea of Neo-Paganism at the feet of Issac Bonewits and his attempt to identify paganism as being paleo-paganism, meso-paganism and neo-paganism. Which I seem to recall he first introduced around 1979. http://www.neopagan.net/PaganDefs.html

But like much of paganism some accepted it and some fought against it. Sort of like how the council of American Witches tried to set a definition of just what witchcraft and Wicca was back in 1974. While it had some who agreed there where also many that disagreed and fought against what it tried to do. So much so that the council disbanded later in 1974 and attempts since then have equally meet with failure. http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_stat1.htm

[Spiny Norman]

Re: The three centres of Paganism

I think the article linked to the thread does a pretty good job of classifying some of the larger themes to result from that kind of seeking over the past 100 years or so. And with that in mind, a hundred years is enough to claim its own history, I would say.

I was reflecting on whether a tradition or practice being ancient necessarily makes it more valid or worthwhile. I don't think it does actually.

[DragonsFriend]

Re: The three centres of Paganism

Most of what I know of historical Sumerian rites and practices would not fit in todays society. The ritual killing of animals and using the entrails for divination is one that is totally repugnant to me and another is the daily lamentations that were performed. Focusing on the negative events and emotions just breeds more negativity. Other things like personal or patron deity for ones self, ones family, for the temple and honoring the position of the creator deity is part of that tradition that I rather like. The four fold pattern fits into most of what we do. The "sacred" numbers of three, four, seven, and thirteen also fit well in my experience.

What was acceptable in the ancient past is not always correct but some things transcend the eons and remain valid.

[Aetius]

Re: The three centres of Paganism

So is neo-paganism basically a modern invention, or does it have any historical basis?

Gemistos Plethon, who helped to get the renaissance started, was a NeoPagan during the 'Byzantine' Empire, in the 15th century.

[DavidMcCann]

Re: The three centres of Paganism

Gemistos Plethon, who helped to get the renaissance started, was a NeoPagan during the 'Byzantine' Empire, in the 15th century.

I was using "neopagan" to refer to those religions founded in the last century, like Wicca and Druidic Paganism, as distinct from ethnic paganisms and their revival. Plethon was, of course, a practitioner of Hellenic Paganism as interpreted by the Neoplatonists. Hellenic Paganism seems never to have died out: so long as the ancient texts existed, there were people (Leo the Philosopher in the 9th century, John Italus in the 11th) who were converted by them.

[Aetius]

Re: The three centres of Paganism

I was using "neopagan" to refer to those religions founded in the last century, like Wicca and Druidic Paganism, as distinct from ethnic paganisms and their revival. Plethon was, of course, a practitioner of Hellenic Paganism as interpreted by the Neoplatonists. Hellenic Paganism seems never to have died out: so long as the ancient texts existed, there were people (Leo the Philosopher in the 9th century, John Italus in the 11th) who were converted by them.

I've always suspected this to be the case, but I usually restrict my comments to Plethon in the absence of rock-solid proof. Some will claim that because they didn't identify as Pagans, they don't count...

Conveniently ignoring the fact that openly worshipping Zeus in 10th century Constantinople meant a slow and painful death at the hands of the authorities.

[thalassa]

Re: The three centres of Paganism

I was reflecting on whether a tradition or practice being ancient necessarily makes it more valid or worthwhile. I don't think it does actually.

Imo, no...its a matter fallacy from antiquity.

As far as your question goes, IMO: ALL paganism pracriced today is neopagan. Whethe its based in an ancient ethnic paganism or not. The possible exception to this are the few pagansisms that have existed in an unbroken lineage. Relatively isolated incidents or people reviving or recreating traditions after they've faded away are an anomaly.

[Spiny Norman]

Re: The three centres of Paganism

As far as your question goes, IMO: ALL paganism practised today is neo-pagan. Whether its based in an ancient ethnic paganism or not. The possible exception to this are the few paganisms that have existed in an unbroken lineage. Relatively isolated incidents or people reviving or recreating traditions after they've faded away are an anomaly.

Yes, and I think the point about unbroken lineage is pivotal here, particularly if there are no ( surviving ) religious texts from ancient times.

[DragonsFriend]

Re: The three centres of Paganism

I know two people who are practicing their family Stregan traditions. It has been passed down among the members of their family without written records.

[DavidMcCann]

Re: The three centres of Paganism

Conveniently ignoring the fact that openly worshipping Zeus in 10th century Constantinople meant a slow and painful death at the hands of the authorities.

John Italus was forced to make a public recantation of his beliefs, and then he was still sent into exile. In Rome, after Christianity was introduced the Pagan writer Eunapius observed that it was "neither laborious nor difficult" to pass oneself off as a Christian, and I suspect that many did.

[Spiny Norman]

Re: The three centres of Paganism

I know two people who are practicing their family Stregan traditions. It has been passed down among the members of their family without written records.

Do you know how far back?

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Hellenic Paganism seems never to have died out: so long as the ancient texts existed, there were people (Leo the Philosopher in the 9th century, John Italus in the 11th) who were converted by them.

So are those ancient texts still available? And other there any other ancient texts relating to Paganism?

[Briton]

Re: The three centres of Paganism

Personally I have no problem in my faith having no roots in any ancient beliefs, that is, it was not passed down. They used a mechanism of worship, one of these centres, as many had done before them. I am also using one of their models, I draw inspiration from what I can, but I accept that the cord has been broken, physically, and there is no way I can prove lineage. I think the obsession with lineage comes from Abrahamic beliefs. The fact that they started out orally means we can't know exactly when Hebrew monotheism started. They use this to try and suggest that they're the oldest (despite good reason to suggest it isn't). We have, generally as a society, been raised to think of credulity of faith as hidden in the mists of the context, be it time or something else.

[thalassa]

Re: The three centres of Paganism

I know two people who are practicing their family Stregan traditions. It has been passed down among the members of their family without written records.

And I know a number of people that claim to be following family trads that are clearly following something much more recent. I'm not saying there aren't any authentic family trads, but if every Pagan claiming to follow a family trad (of more than 1 or 2, maybe even 3 generations...which is feasible from the the time of the popularization of Wicca) was actually part of an unbroken lineage, there's be a lot more evidence of this... People just don't keep secrets that well...there would be leakage somewhere.

People inventing traditions and claiming an ancient history of them (and giving them a veneer of the ancient Paganism of their family's originating culture) was incredibly popular before the 90s.

[DragonsFriend]

Re: The three centres of Paganism

There are something like 20,000 ancient Cuneiform texts and some of those have religious records. The number of published translation that are available is very low and the translations are sometimes less than accurate. Even Kramer admitted to making a mistake when he called one of the characters Lilith. He found at a later date that it was not Lilith either in name or reputation. The recorded practices mostly come from late Sumer and through the Babylonian history. The Epic of Gilgamesh is Babylonian and not Sumerian. The Sumerian (earlier) version of the story is less "colorful" and the leading character is (Gilgameil?). That name is not spelled right and I won't take the time to look it up but it is phonetically close.
The problem is the Cuneiform text was used by several of the neighboring society but in their own language. Studying the Cuneiform text can result in getting information from Assyrian, Babylonian, Persian, Akkadian, or Amorite history. Even the "Kings List" is from Babylon so the list of deities that I have lists the different names of deities in each culture. The lineage of the deities is "confusing" to say the least because the gender of some of the deities change between father and mother. I figure that peculiarity stems from the change from the matrilineal to the patriarchal society that was seen around 3000 to 2500 BCE. It could be that some of the deities hold both genders as do Abnu and Anki.
I do wish there was more anthropology done in the studies of Sumer and the near eastern civilizations.