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    What might gods be?

    By this I mean, aside from discrete, self conscious and settled aware individuals who are not ideas made up by people. What other ways might deities exist, and how might they be served or worshiped in these instances? I can see how 'real' (I put real on inverted commas because the idea of real in the natural world doesn't work out with gods, generally) clear and independent gods might be worshiped, but I can't see how gods may exist in other senses. Do they exist in other senses at all in other religions, traditionally?

    The reason I ask is that, by no deliberate consideration when I was driving home from college today, and I don't believe in gods, any gods, but I suddenly found myself thinking about two figures with distinct personalities. I don't know why, but I don't really know what to do with them. They don't seem to have any clear basis on pre-existing gods and I want feeling particularly inspired as I drove home on the motorway.
    I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
    Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
    But that day you know I left my money
    And I thought of you only
    All that copper glowing fine

    #2
    Re: What might gods be?

    Not too sure how this discussion is very different from Thalassa's What Are Gods thread. Are you thinking of something like the concept of kami in Shinto? Is the question 'In what ways are deities perceived other than as a person?'

    Comment


      #3
      Re: What might gods be?

      If I understand you, you're saying that (1) traditional pagans regard the gods as real beings and (2) some neopagans regard them as psychological archetypes, but you're looking for a third way. I can't see there is one.

      Why don't you believe in the gods? Because you've no previous experience? There are lots of things you take on trust that you are told by others whose experience is wider than yours, so why not the gods?

      Comment


        #4
        Re: What might gods be?

        A third way?

        Not real, and not not-real.

        Or, fourth option, both real and not real.
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

        Comment


          #5
          Re: What might gods be?

          Originally posted by DavidMcCann View Post
          If I understand you, you're saying that (1) traditional pagans regard the gods as real beings and (2) some neopagans regard them as psychological archetypes, but you're looking for a third way. I can't see there is one.
          Yeah, my own concept of deity is definitely none of the above! I feel a bit like a broken record at this point, but for the benefit of those who weren't around at the time of my rather public theological breakdown, I'll explain where I stand again.

          Following several years of repeatedly losing and rediscovering my faith in varying degrees of severity, I had possibly my biggest struggle around a year ago, at which time I knew in my heart that there was something, and couldn't dismiss my experiences, but at the same time I found it hard to trust in any deity that stood by and allowed so much horror and suffering in the world (and I'm not only talking about human beings, but also the fact that much of 'nature' is cruel and unforgiving). Around that time, my posts on PF were a little dark and I frequently used words like 'hate' to describe how I felt towards deity.

          Despite my thoughts and behaviour, I never noticed I'd developed high anxiety. I couldn't read a news report without graphically putting myself in the shoes of the people affected, feeling their suffering and gathering up more and more contempt for these gods who hear their prayers yet cannot or will not do anything. Either the gods were powerless, in which case what's the point in devoting time and energy to them? Or they were heartless, in which case why would they deserve our piety?

          So to cut a long story only marginally shorter than it would have been, this culminated in a series of heart palpitations and a massive panic attack on a crowded rush hour bus last February. It was then that I began a course of CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy), that allowed me the head space to think more clearly about the reality of deity and find a concept that connects my feeling that there is something, my experiences of spells and prayers having real effects, and crucially for me at the time, could explain why the gods can't and won't prevent suffering, yet still deserve our love and respect.

          My conclusion? I believe there is a force that exists in this world. One that we've perhaps begun to recognise and describe. It is a force that exists in all things, it's what is left when you take matter down to its most basic components.. getting smaller and smaller until all there is left is energy. It obeys a strict set of physical laws, but it's possible that we're not yet aware of what they are. It isn't self aware any more than gravity is self aware. It doesn't think, it doesn't pick and choose what it does.. it just mindlessly obeys the universal laws it's is subjected to. This 'God energy' as I call it, stands back and allows suffering because it is unaware of the suffering. You can pray and scream at it until your throat is so sore it hurts to draw breath, and it will still do nothing. It doesn't even know you are there.

          It exists within us though, and it is then that it takes on a peculiar characteristic. When we interact with it as though it is sentient, it behaves as such. It replies, it shows us symbols that answer our questions, and moreover, the god energy in the immediate world around us will be affected to, so that plant and even inanimate objects will appear to contain a sentient 'spirit' or its own mini god.

          The reason I came to realise that it was worth interacting with and revering this energy is that by strengthening it from within, I'm able to affect at least my immediate world at some level. Maybe I can't prevent suffering, not even my own, but I can at least steer things a little in my favour. I can see the world through calmer, more optimistic and essentially happier eyes. I can be content in the knowledge that I'm not entirely alone, and that as long as I love and acknowledge my gods, they're loving and acknowledging me back. The ball is very much in my court though, and it is for me to generate change from within, because the gods can't do anything until I draw them a diagram, and they're only as willing to help me as I am willing to help myself. That's both empowering, and encouraging, and means I can't keep blaming the gods for everything that is wrong in the world.

          The craziest part of all of this, was discovering that this theory that was all my own creation, isn't so unique after all. There are actually others who share similar beliefs.

          I think we can definitely call this a 3rd option!
          Last edited by Jembru; 09 Jan 2016, 13:23.
          夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

          Comment


            #6
            Re: What might gods be?

            Originally posted by Azvanna View Post
            Is the question 'In what ways are deities perceived other than as a person?'
            Yes, that's what I meant.

            - - - Updated - - -

            Originally posted by DavidMcCann View Post
            If I understand you, you're saying that (1) traditional pagans regard the gods as real beings and (2) some neopagans regard them as psychological archetypes, but you're looking for a third way. I can't see there is one.
            Nope. Definitely putting words in my mouth there mate. I made no differentiation between 'traditional' and 'neo' pagans, nor did I assert what each group believes. You read far too much into it

            Originally posted by DavidMcCann View Post
            Why don't you believe in the gods? Because you've no previous experience? There are lots of things you take on trust that you are told by others whose experience is wider than yours, so why not the gods?
            I don't appreciate being talked to like that. Don't tell me what I believe regarding what people I may or may not have listened to have told me, and don't assume your 'experiences' validate your beliefs in gods. I get it, my claim of unbelief is an affront to you because it suggests I'm saying you are wrong. Maybe you are? Why don't you trust those who have been on this world longer and believe in no gods? This is the sort of question I expect from unthinking evangelical Christians. Is that who you compare yourself to?

            - - - Updated - - -

            Jembru, that is quite similar to my beliefs, but I wouldn't call it god because it didn't create anything, however it is amoral and desires no worship. It just exists as life that permeates the earth and all living things. Those that die are subsumed into the earth and participate in the seasons. It is not a god because it was created by the universe, it is subjected to nature, like an indentured serf. It is, however, self aware, and that is why we notice funny quirks in weather or nature that keep us on our toes just when we think we have something figured out.
            I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
            Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
            But that day you know I left my money
            And I thought of you only
            All that copper glowing fine

            Comment


              #7
              Re: What might gods be?

              I've never really considered whether or not the energy created the universe. I imagine it was there from the very beginning, but who knows if it was there before. Not that it matters to me much. I would say it's creative at the very least.

              On the other hand, I wouldn't argue against the manifestations not being true gods. I see all 'spirits' as essentially the same, just taking different forms. So I guess you could argue that either they're all gods, like the kami previously referenced, or that none of them are gods. Part of my approach is not to define them though, because I believe that once I try to define or explain my experiences they'll change to fit into my boxes, and any future experiences will be limited. It's why I still treat the 'ghosts' at work, as spirits of the deceased, even though my spirituality technically excludes the possibility of that kind of ghost. They behave that way, so I take them at face value and don't attempt to explain or define them.

              I hope this won't derail the topic too much, but do you mind if I ask you something? At any point have you attempted to create a land-based spiritual system? The reason I ask is that of the people who share similar concepts of deity, the thing that seems to connect them is a spirituality focused on their locality. It's probably just a coincidence, but I'm curious enough about this pattern to want more data! (^_^)
              夕方に急なにわか雨は「夕立」と呼ばれるなら、なぜ朝ににわか雨は「朝立ち」と呼ばれないの? ^^If a sudden rain shower in the evening is referred to as an 'evening stand', then why isn't a shower in the morning called 'morning stand'?

              Comment


                #8
                Re: What might gods be?

                Originally posted by DavidMcCann View Post
                Why don't you believe in the gods? Because you've no previous experience? There are lots of things you take on trust that you are told by others whose experience is wider than yours, so why not the gods?
                Originally posted by Briton View Post
                I don't appreciate being talked to like that. Don't tell me what I believe regarding what people I may or may not have listened to have told me, and don't assume your 'experiences' validate your beliefs in gods. I get it, my claim of unbelief is an affront to you because it suggests I'm saying you are wrong. Maybe you are? Why don't you trust those who have been on this world longer and believe in no gods? This is the sort of question I expect from unthinking evangelical Christians. Is that who you compare yourself to?
                I'm nipping this in the bud right now.

                David, have a little more tact when you question other people's belief systems. Remember that you are not the only person on the planet who has a valid belief system. They are ALL valid.

                Briton, grow some tougher skin and stop getting your knickers in a twist. Sure, David's question was pretentious, but it was still a valid response to your OP and there is no need to go off the deep end. And it it certainly did NOT deserve the evangelical Christian comment. Your response is inappropriate and I will NOT tolerate snide comments about, or rude comparisons to, other religions in my domain. If you can't handle people questioning your beliefs, then don't post questions inviting them to do so. The next time I see you speaking like this to another member, with or without good reason, I will be passing you onto the folks in Red Text for an infraction.

                Don't test me. Now move along and play nice before I decide to shut your thread down.

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: What might gods be?

                  Why don't you believe in the gods? Because you've no previous experience? There are lots of things you take on trust that you are told by others whose experience is wider than yours, so why not the gods?
                  Lack of physical evidence and knowledge of how the brain works.


                  Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                  A third way?

                  Not real, and not not-real.

                  Or, fourth option, both real and not real.
                  And a giant amorphous blob of all of these things at the same time!

                  I was listening to Devdutt Pattanaik's TED talk on NPR about his that I think works here. People either tend to be linear and think in dichotomies and absolutes or they tend to be global thinkers, and cyclical thinkers.


                  Originally posted by Briton View Post
                  By this I mean, aside from discrete, self conscious and settled aware individuals who are not ideas made up by people. What other ways might deities exist, and how might they be served or worshiped in these instances? I can see how 'real' (I put real on inverted commas because the idea of real in the natural world doesn't work out with gods, generally) clear and independent gods might be worshiped, but I can't see how gods may exist in other senses. Do they exist in other senses at all in other religions, traditionally?
                  As a pantheist, I think that the ultimate Divine is the Universe, physically and energetically. Individual gods are like facets of a diamond, or computer terminals to access this greater divine...or maybe like one of those Russian dolls with the other dolls inside.

                  I would question this statement of yours: I wouldn't call it god because it didn't create anything----Why is this your defining trait for what is god?
                  A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe,' limited in time and space. He experiences himself...as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a prison for us... Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the of whole nature in its beauty...
                  --Albert Einstein

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: What might gods be?

                    Amorphous idiot flute players?

                    I was listening to Devdutt Pattanaik's TED talk on NPR about his that I think works here. People either tend to be linear and think in dichotomies and absolutes or they tend to be global thinkers, and cyclical thinkers.
                    Western logic is binary, either + or -, while Eastern logic (Buddhist logic) is four point logic, +, -, not + and not -, both + and -.

                    Both have certain advantages and disadvantages.

                    I'm off to watch the referenced TED, Neraida!
                    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: What might gods be?

                      A computer geniuis playing a VERY long game of SIMS and probably getting very bored by this point. - or so says Simulation Theory

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: What might gods be?

                        Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                        Western logic is binary, either + or -, while Eastern logic (Buddhist logic) is four point logic, +, -, not + and not -, both + and -.

                        Both have certain advantages and disadvantages.
                        Yes! I think what is important is learning both, and knowing when to apply one or the other, or even both at the same time, or neither...

                        After all, if I've learned anything from fairy tales, sometimes a frog is just a frog. Except when a prince is disguised as a frog, or the frog is disguised as the prince. Real life experience with men has mostly borne this out for me as well, at least metaphorically. IRL, I'm quite fond of frogs.
                        A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe,' limited in time and space. He experiences himself...as something separated from the rest--a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a prison for us... Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the of whole nature in its beauty...
                        --Albert Einstein

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: What might gods be?

                          Sorry, I will ignore trolling questions in future, or try to. You're right, creating is not relevant. Ignore that.

                          However whatever is the source of life in my opinion is just as much a creation of the universe as us. I don't see any reason to worship it on that basis, I also don't think wishing it will change anything.
                          I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
                          Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
                          But that day you know I left my money
                          And I thought of you only
                          All that copper glowing fine

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: What might gods be?

                            Originally posted by Briton View Post
                            The reason I ask is that, by no deliberate consideration when I was driving home from college today, and I don't believe in gods, any gods, but I suddenly found myself thinking about two figures with distinct personalities. I don't know why, but I don't really know what to do with them. They don't seem to have any clear basis on pre-existing gods and I want feeling particularly inspired as I drove home on the motorway.
                            Intriguing - could you say more about this?
                            Once a man, like the sea I raged;
                            Once a woman, like the earth I gave;
                            And there is in fact more earth than sea.
                            Genesis lyric

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: What might gods be?

                              Any force that can influence you could be venerated in someway.
                              And therefore can be harnessed or used. Or ignored/tolerated. Depending on your over all outlook.

                              What type of belief structure/tradition do you have?( if you don't mind me asking?)

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