Why was the transition from Celtic pagan to Christianity so easily done?

[Tylluan Penry]

Re: Why was the transition from Celtic pagan to Christianity so easily done?

I don't really see how that article refutes what I said. The article states that there are various minorities, such as Anglo-Saxon as Viking, which leaves the majority to have arrived after the last Ice Age, moving up from the south of France and Basque as the ice receded.

Anyway, that aside, when I said about "looking good to traders" I was referring to the leaders, my apologies for not being clear. Like you said, the vulgus populus converted based on their king (which is also what I said in my first post). I don't think land theft by the church was a reason for conversion amongst the majority, though, unless you are referring to coercion.

The reason I sent the link was becausse you said that the Celtic and Anglo-Saxon DNA made up a 'slim minority' - which is something I think the article refutes.
As for the land theft - what I was getting at was that the effects and benefits of conversion were not ultimately as great as kings would have expected. But probably once they realised this, it was a bit late to do anything about it.

[Briton]

Re: Why was the transition from Celtic pagan to Christianity so easily done?

Oh, I see what you mean now! Fair enough, yes, it would be too late. Handing your sovereignty to foreign powers rarely works out well lol

[sionnach]

Re: Why was the transition from Celtic pagan to Christianity so easily done?

In the Roman Empire, Latin (like Arabic today) meant one thing when you wrote and another when you spoke. Before the reforms of Charlemagne, the service seems to have been read in the vernacular, even though written in the literary language.

People with a Protestant background get excited about the use of their native language, but it's no big deal. Muslims pray in Arabic; Hindus use Sanskrit mantras; Russian services are conducted in Old Bulgarian! Most people would pick up the main Latin prayers; I can still do it: Pater noster, qui est in caelis ... Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum. ... Credo in unum Deum, Pater omnipotentem ...

Do we know that the Roman Church was held in English in England, Welsh in Wales and Irish in Ireland or was that only related to the Germanic of Charlemagne. I understood from my history of England that it was not held in English just as the bibles were only written in Latin. But maybe in Germany the bibles and services were in the vernacular language on the Continent.

In terms of the change from pagan to Christianity the Roman Church there were two things in particular that proved effective. One was clear structure to the Roman Church which organized well based after the Roman military structure. The second was the written word. Ireland as well as much of the Celtic and Germanic world was an oral culture with a tribal. Once placed as the written word the beliefs are often seen as absolute and unchangeable as apposed to oral transfer of beliefs which would change as the nature of human behavior. Thus many Christians (not all) see the old testament and new testament as the absolute word where the oral beliefs and history changes with time. The organization of the church gave a consistency uniformity which was not as likely for the pagan religions. Thus brought conformity and absolutism/intolerance as apposed to individuality of pagan culture and tolerance. Intolerance and absolutism leads to the elimination of competing beliefs which clearly happened at all times. That was connected with the aggressive conversion of the leaders of the clans and tribes which supported the Roman Church. Despite this some concepts of paganism were written down by Irish monks and not destroyed as was the Roman influence in much of the continent and the folk culture preserved although altered in the folklore and customs of the ordinary people.

[DragonsFriend]

Re: Why was the transition from Celtic pagan to Christianity so easily done?

The Roman Church (Roman Catholic) was held in Latin long after the Bibles were translated into English. I grew up in the USA and remember when the Church changed to allow it to be performed in the native language. Before that we learned a bit of Latin. The Latin mass was all part of "the mystery" of the Catholic religion.

[sionnach]

Re: Why was the transition from Celtic pagan to Christianity so easily done?

The Roman Church (Roman Catholic) was held in Latin long after the Bibles were translated into English. I grew up in the USA and remember when the Church changed to allow it to be performed in the native language. Before that we learned a bit of Latin. The Latin mass was all part of "the mystery" of the Catholic religion.

Thank you, not being catholic I heard it was but never experienced it.

Another factor in the transition may have been the change from the more abstract Gods/Goddesses of the pagan religion to the more human portrayal of the Christian religion brought.

[monsno_leedra]

Re: Why was the transition from Celtic pagan to Christianity so easily done?

Thank you, not being catholic I heard it was but never experienced it.

Another factor in the transition may have been the change from the more abstract Gods/Goddesses of the pagan religion to the more human portrayal of the Christian religion brought.

Bolded mine. I think that aspect might be truer after the Protestant Reformation & Catholic Rereformation's than prior to them. That near as I recall was when you really saw the one on one aspect between God / Jesus and the believer. Prior to that there was still a lot of needing the clergy to be the go between and reveal what God's intent and desires were.

[sionnach]

Re: Why was the transition from Celtic pagan to Christianity so easily done?

Bolded mine. I think that aspect might be truer after the Protestant Reformation & Catholic Rereformation's than prior to them. That near as I recall was when you really saw the one on one aspect between God / Jesus and the believer. Prior to that there was still a lot of needing the clergy to be the go between and reveal what God's intent and desires were.

I cannot argue with that since am not as knowledgeable about the catholic faith but even if the personal relationship comes later there is still the image that god becomes a man - in human form. This forms a closer relationship of man to God compared to the existing Insular gods and goddesses which are in many cases less human and more associated with land and the animals and often with less human features or nature. The goddess transforming into the raven or animal which keeps her clearly connected with the natural world. The Christian god comes as a man thus making human form more god like than other forms of life.
I wonder how the delt with the aspect of the goddess however since the Christian religion was and for many christian dominated by the male form or at least portrayed as the male form. This must have been one point that took more time to transition whereas making Jesus as a God more powerful than Lug or Dagda must have been easier than completely leaving out the Goddess aspect in the religion.

[thalassa]

Re: Why was the transition from Celtic pagan to Christianity so easily done?

I wonder how the delt with the aspect of the goddess however since the Christian religion was and for many christian dominated by the male form or at least portrayed as the male form. This must have been one point that took more time to transition whereas making Jesus as a God more powerful than Lug or Dagda must have been easier than completely leaving out the Goddess aspect in the religion.

You are forgetting the importance of Mary in Catholicism.