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    #31
    Re: Make America great - for everybody!

    Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
    I am not wealthy by any American standard but I own my home and two cars, outright. I have no debt and have owned three businesses as well as having worked for others. Why would I want to pay 50% of my income so that others didn't have to work? The cost of education has changed in the USA but it is coming back to being supported more through taxes. I worked my way through high school and college. I was on my own from the age of 17. At least in the USA you can work to get what you want, if you want it enough.
    The USA is not a democratic socialist country and it can never be as long as we have the constitution because the constitution guarantees a republican form of government to all the states.
    If you want it enough? Nope. I'm sure you probably did work hard, I don't doubt that at all.

    But that statement reeks of ableism and privilege so bad. I've worked really hard with very little support, and barely get what I need for my family, let alone myself, and most definitely not what I want. I know people who spend their whole lives working, only to get nowhere because they don't have the luck in their favor, or are able to meet the one person they need in order to make a good connection.

    I'm so sick of the "welfare queens" myth that people continue to scream about when talking about government assistance. I can't count the number of times I've heard "Oh, but look, they have <insert nice item>, they shouldn't be spending their money on that thing!" When a)it was theirs before they were on assistance, b)someone gave it to them as a gift, or c)they did buy it with their money from their job because even poor people deserve nice things in their life to make them happy.

    I'm fine with my taxes going towards the huge majority of people who don't have a good enough job to feed themselves or their families, because I recognize that there are people who work harder than me and people who are smarter and more deserving of something than me, but I am the one blessed with the combination of a good job, good luck, and good health to be able to live decently.

    Also, from the way I understand how Iris and Danie put it, the 50% taxes goes to other people in *different stages of life*. So it benefits a variety of people who *are not at the same level* as the people who pay. It benefits college students so they *CAN* focus on education and become successful, and it benefits people who cannot find a job that works for their life, and it benefits people who are ill or disabled in some aspect so that everyone has the chance to have a great quality of life.

    To sum up: Even if (the general) you work hard, you may one day need assistance, not everyone is as lucky as you are, even if you don't consider yourself lucky.
    Last edited by faye_cat; 18 Mar 2016, 10:10. Reason: clarity
    ~Rudyard Kipling, The Cat Who Walks By Himself

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      #32
      Re: Make America great - for everybody!

      Originally posted by faye_cat View Post
      But that statement reeks of ableism and privilege so bad. I've worked really hard with very little support, and barely get what I need for my family, let alone myself, and most definitely not what I want. I know people who spend their whole lives working, only to get nowhere because they don't have the luck in their favor, or are able to meet the one person they need in order to make a good connection.
      Absolutely.

      TBH, these people don't even know how much of their life and livelihood was paid for with tax money. Because America used to have a progressive tax system...under Ike, the highest earners (equivalent to multi-millionaires after adjusting income for inflation) paid 90%.

      I'm all for my taxes going up if it pays for a strong social safety net--because I know what it was like to need one and NOT have one. And I guarantee you most people don't pay as much as they think they do in this country: http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm

      And look what happened when we got rid of it.
      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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        #33
        Re: Make America great - for everybody!

        I don't care how hard you work. I don't care if you own your car(s). I don't care if you own your house. I don't care if you worked your way through college.

        I don't care because I have done all of those things, and have discovered the hard way that they don't matter.

        What matters is something completely out of your control.

        Luck.

        Unless you are rich, you are one single disaster away from homelessness. Trust me on this, and learn the wisdom that comes of Karma and experience.

        Or not. Doesn't actually matter to me.
        Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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          #34
          Re: Make America great - for everybody!

          Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
          I don't care how hard you work. I don't care if you own your car(s). I don't care if you own your house. I don't care if you worked your way through college.

          I don't care because I have done all of those things, and have discovered the hard way that they don't matter.

          What matters is something completely out of your control.

          Luck.

          Unless you are rich, you are one single disaster away from homelessness. Trust me on this, and learn the wisdom that comes of Karma and experience.

          Or not. Doesn't actually matter to me.
          Pretty much true! All that "hard work" stuff is made up by the rich to keep the poor blindsided. The jobs I had where I put in the most hours, effort, etc., paid squat. It was all gaslighting and mirrors.
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            #35
            Re: Make America great - for everybody!

            Originally posted by faye_cat View Post

            Also, from the way I understand how Iris and Danie put it, the 50% taxes goes to other people in *different stages of life*. So it benefits a variety of people who *are not at the same level* as the people who pay. It benefits college students so they *CAN* focus on education and become successful, and it benefits people who cannot find a job that works for their life, and it benefits people who are ill or disabled in some aspect so that everyone has the chance to have a great quality of life.

            To sum up: Even if (the general) you work hard, you may one day need assistance, not everyone is as lucky as you are, even if you don't consider yourself lucky.
            EXACTLY. This is exactly how it works.

            Very few people need state assistance forever. Most people just need the very basics, like the free university education and parental leave. After that, they're out paying taxes at a fair, progressive rate that reflects their income. Sometimes, people lose their jobs and need unemployment insurance, which they pay into anyway. It covers you for a year while you look for another job, and most people find a job before that time is up. If that falls through, THEN there's welfare. In some states, the number of welfare recipients is very high (mostly due to the challenges and mistakes of reuniting East and West Germany), but it's still not even half of the population. Most people don't want to be unemployed. Being unemployed is boring and tedious.

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              #36
              Re: Make America great - for everybody!

              Originally posted by faye_cat View Post
              I'm so sick of the "welfare queens" myth that people continue to scream about when talking about government assistance.
              "Myth." An exaggerated problem, maybe, but not one that flat-out does not exist. There are people who take advantage of generosity, people who lie about their health and finances to get assistance and sympathy, people who can get by on their own but choose not to. I live on a reservation, I've seen it with my own eyes.

              Denying that such things happen is just as bad as using that fact to argue against helping the people who need it. Denying the plainly obvious only gives their arguments credence. Throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

              There are always going to be people who take advantage of the kindness of others. That's not a problem with kindness, it's a problem with those people.
              Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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                #37
                Re: Make America great - for everybody!

                But the thing is, the number of people abusing the system are such a minority. Cutting benefits and making stricter rules tends to punish a lot of people that need it. Better deal with a few abusers than cut off people in need.

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                  #38
                  Re: Make America great - for everybody!

                  Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
                  Better deal with a few abusers than cut off people in need.
                  That's what I'm saying. They exist, denying that only serves to strengthen arguments made against welfare. In its own way, outright denial of the "welfare queen" argument can be just as damaging to the working poor and genuinely disadvantaged.
                  Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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                    #39
                    Re: Make America great - for everybody!

                    Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                    That's what I'm saying. They exist, denying that only serves to strengthen arguments made against welfare. In its own way, outright denial of the "welfare queen" argument can be just as damaging to the working poor and genuinely disadvantaged.
                    I think a big part of denying the welfare queen argument has more to do with the fact that people who make it usually think that's the majority of welfare recipients, which is not the case. It's not even a particularly strong minority.

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                      #40
                      Re: Make America great - for everybody!

                      Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                      "Myth." An exaggerated problem, maybe, but not one that flat-out does not exist. There are people who take advantage of generosity, people who lie about their health and finances to get assistance and sympathy, people who can get by on their own but choose not to. I live on a reservation, I've seen it with my own eyes.
                      I'm tired and I didn't speak as clearly as I could have.

                      By the "welfare queen" myth, I am actually saying the myth is that welfare queens, that is, women who "pop out babies just to get money and don't even care to raise them" (how I've actually heard the term described to me), are the people who receive the most money from government assistance and are people who cannot be tracked or found out. I know they, and other forms of welfare fund abusers, exist, but they are not the majority, as Danie explained.

                      The myth was in reference to that they were the majority, not the minority.
                      ~Rudyard Kipling, The Cat Who Walks By Himself

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                        #41
                        Re: Make America great - for everybody!

                        The biggest scroungers are not single mothers, or people in wheelchairs who don't want to work badly enough (badly enough for whom? Maybe someone could tell me?)
                        No... the biggest scroungers are people who already have it all but won't pay their taxes; big corporations who offer zero hours contracts or workfare; politicians who claim for their underpants and duckponds (yes, it happened in the UK). Oh, and stick the royal family onto that little list too.
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                          #42
                          Re: Make America great - for everybody!

                          I see balancing the budget and reducing our national debt to be one of the most important issues facing the US, therefore I can also see where a lot of people who are critical of socialism are coming from.

                          However, quibbling about healthcare when our military budget is more than twice that of our closest rivals combined is absolutely absurd. I can think of a dozen things off the top of my head that are a more pressing financial concern than any and all of our socialist programs and policies.

                          ^Greedy politicians and corporations among them.

                          Balancing the budget isn't about defunding things you don't like willy-nilly, it's about dividing our expenditures by what we can afford to spend money on and what we can't afford to not spend money on. Reasonably and holistically.

                          I might disagree with socialism, I might even consider it to be every bit as dangerous as capitalism in its own way. I might also believe that a system that haphazardly waffles between socialist and capitalist is almost certainly more dangerous and harmful than either. I might be a right wing libertarian, but I also strongly believe in democracy.

                          The people want it, almost overwhelmingly so. That has been proven time and again. To deny the people what they want is unamerican.
                          Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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                            #43
                            Re: Make America great - for everybody!

                            Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
                            Oh, and stick the royal family onto that little list too.
                            Oh no! The queen's 34 billion? Being held in "good faith" for the pople of the UK?
                            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                              #44
                              Re: Make America great - for everybody!

                              Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
                              I am not wealthy by any American standard but I own my home and two cars, outright. I have no debt and have owned three businesses as well as having worked for others. Why would I want to pay 50% of my income so that others didn't have to work? The cost of education has changed in the USA but it is coming back to being supported more through taxes. I worked my way through high school and college. I was on my own from the age of 17. At least in the USA you can work to get what you want, if you want it enough.
                              The USA is not a democratic socialist country and it can never be as long as we have the constitution because the constitution guarantees a republican form of government to all the states.
                              It only takes one good fall down some steps and suddenly you will be needing help.
                              Satan is my spirit animal

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                                #45
                                Re: Make America great - for everybody!

                                And thats the facts Jack!!!
                                MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

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                                NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
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