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    Tribes and tribe building

    I prefer to broach this subject here at this site where there is a more level-headed group that doesn't get defensive or think they're being challenged. :smile:

    I see a lot of comments about tribes, tribe building and finding a tribe in Heathenry. My understanding is that one's tribe is one's family or other extremely close-knit group, e.g. LEOs, men and women in the armed forces who have fought together, firefighters, and others who may or may not worship in the same way, but have an almost unbreakable bond. These are people who are a family and have a right to call each other brother and sister. Many internet Heathens have the motto "if you don't know me, don't 'bro' me". They rail at using "brother" and "sister" just because you happen to be Heathen. They claim it smacks of Christian baggage; brotherly and sisterly love.

    Now, here's the thing: the phrase "building a tribe". If one already has a family, though they are not Heathen, isn't it contradictory and almost a betrayal of the family, the real tribe, to go searching for others to call your tribe and
    śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ


    #2
    Re: Tribes and tribe building

    A tribe is usually a group who lives in the same area as each other. A tribe is rarely one family. I don't see why Heathens can't look for others in the area and build a practice. Especially if their family doesn't. If you feel you are choosing between family and the gods you shouldn't join that tribe for sure.

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      #3
      Re: Tribes and tribe building

      Originally posted by Ula View Post
      A tribe is usually a group who lives in the same area as each other. A tribe is rarely one family.
      Agreed. However I think the key phrase is "in the same area". With Heathens spread so thin, and few and far between. I wonder how cohesive a tribe of people who are hours away from each other would be?
      śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
      śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

      Comment


        #4
        Re: Tribes and tribe building

        I think the word is being used and interpreted differently today.
        Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
        sigpic

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          #5
          Re: Tribes and tribe building

          Thorbjorn,
          First let me say that I am not Heathen nor do I know much about your path. I have belonged to two groups in my pagan life. One was referred to as a " Nest" and the other was referred to as a "Temple". The name used isn't as important as the group. The group members go through an initiation process with a sponsor from the group as a guide. We got very close in this process and after initiation we stayed close and got to know the rest of the people intimately. We did not fight battles together or save lives together but we did help each other through whatever life threw at us. We were closer than family in a lot of ways (and I come from a large family who are close). We came together to help each other with real challenges like car problems, home repairs, and having insurance against the improbable. we learned how to can and preserve food and did it together. I learned how to repair/replace my roof with help from the group. When it came time for me to leave the first group it was like leaving home but I knew that I would always share this connection to those people. When I decided to leave the second group it was the same way. I had to move and the Temple in Seattle was a good group of people who were almost as close as the people in my first group. It hurt to move but I knew I would be starting a new temple with new people. we have begun that process here.

          In native traditions outsiders and outlanders were occasionally allowed into the tribe after they completed trials. In ancient times (in the middle east) travelers would join in with the local populations in their festivals and religious rites. It did not replace their own practices but it sometimes modified those rites on both sides. The tribes of northern Europe came together against common enemies and fought together. Did they also share their religious rites? They shared families to keep the peace, offering a bride to a neighboring tribe to have common ground.

          Sharing one's family, religious rites and strengths make for a more resilient group. Although I know little about Heathens in particular I know that civilization was built upon tribal customs. I know that religious practices grew as a result of interaction with others. As has been stated, if you believe you are betraying your tribe by joining another then you shouldn't do it. If you can't fide people local to you with whom you share spirituality then you must choose which is more challenging, to practice in solitaire or to join with another tribe to share your spiritual connection.
          The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
          I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

          Comment


            #6
            Re: Tribes and tribe building

            Originally posted by thalassa View Post
            I think the word is being used and interpreted differently today.
            Very possibly. I think there are more than a few words and concepts that have different meanings today. After all, this is the 21st century, not 10 century Scandinavia.

            - - - Updated - - -

            DragonsFriend, you're not off the mark at all, as I understand a tribe or community is structured. I like your description of it and wish that were more common. Maybe because I don't see it in suburban NJ, and probably never will, it's hard to imagine. I do think of the Amish as an example of a present day community like that.
            śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
            śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

            Comment


              #7
              Re: Tribes and tribe building

              Would it be possible to use witchvox.com, local book stores and maybe some local activities to build a tribe of like minded folks around yourself?

              I moved to a rural area in South-eastern Washington from the Seattle metropolitan area and found no contacts at all for three years. All of a sudden there is a large population of pagan folks that surfaced at a "Pagans in the Park" event. I have begun teaching classes and making some good friends. Some share a great deal in common although not necessarily the same spirituality.
              The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
              I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

              Comment


                #8
                Re: Tribes and tribe building

                I agree with Thalassa. It's simply a modern interpretation (or corruption, however you chose to look at it) of an ancient system that is no longer relevant for us. As Heathens and NTers, we can't worship in the same commmunity way that our ancestors did, simply because we do not live in settlements of people who all have the same faith. So people do the best with what they have... internet groups, statewide meetup groups, solitary practice, groups who meet twice a year, annual weekend retreats... NONE of it is authentic or traditional so if people want to get their knickers in a twist over it then you don't want to be in a community with those people.

                If we want to be authentic and traditional, then we'll drop the whole 'my family doesn't worship the same gods as me' and celebrate the family and community that we have for what they are. Religion was only one tiny part of the 'tribe' if you will. Your family is still your family irrespective of what gods they follow, and contrary to what many Heathens claim, our ancestors were actually inclusive of other religions.

                As far as I'm concerned, this is one of those stupid arguments that recon Heathens like to have that makes me roll my eyes. This is why I think you should come be NT, Thorbjorn... you think like an NTer, not an Asatruar

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: Tribes and tribe building

                  Originally posted by DragonsFriend View Post
                  Would it be possible to use witchvox.com, local book stores and maybe some local activities to build a tribe of like minded folks around yourself?
                  I've done on-line searches using several search arguments, and nothing comes up for the area I'm in. Only a few people, much less kindreds, come up for the whole state. Due to spinal issues, which include a lumbar fusion, my driving or riding is limited to just about an hour. So in that regard I'm left with solitary rituals. As far as community, being in a sprawling highway-laced, shopping and strip mall-laden area, with neighbors who remain cloistered in their homes, we have no sense of community. Maybe I can do something to volunteer with the township.

                  - - - Updated - - -

                  Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                  I agree with Thalassa. It's simply a modern interpretation (or corruption, however you chose to look at it) of an ancient system that is no longer relevant for us. As Heathens and NTers, we can't worship in the same commmunity way that our ancestors did, simply because we do not live in settlements of people who all have the same faith. So people do the best with what they have... internet groups, statewide meetup groups, solitary practice, groups who meet twice a year, annual weekend retreats... NONE of it is authentic or traditional so if people want to get their knickers in a twist over it then you don't want to be in a community with those people.
                  As usual, you make too much sense. And no, I'm not sucking up. :XD laugh::rofl:

                  I try to remind myself that this isn't 10th century Scandinavia or northern Europe, as I said up above. I daresay what I've been reading at certain sites, one in particular that starts with an 'r', and another that has the letters FB, is romanticized and fantasized. I think it's past time to bid them "... the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time... ".

                  If we want to be authentic and traditional, then we'll drop the whole 'my family doesn't worship the same gods as me' and celebrate the family and community that we have for what they are. Religion was only one tiny part of the 'tribe' if you will. Your family is still your family irrespective of what gods they follow, and contrary to what many Heathens claim, our ancestors were actually inclusive of other religions.
                  Here is something I wrote, word for word, to an e-pal who is also Heathen: I don't know just when your ancestors came "off the boat" (for me it was my grandparents), but don't you find that the closer a generation is to the "old country" and "old ways", whether it's Germany, Italy, Greece, Sweden, the more of a Heathen (Gods, I'll hate myself for using this word)... "worldview" there is? I think so. Even the 3rd generation in my family, the nieces and nephews are as Italian and Sicilian as it gets. My niece even chastised her 15 year old son for saying "ricotta" [with a horrible American accent] instead of our dialectal "ree-goat". :XD laugh:

                  His (my e-pal) response was: I agree. For me most are after 1850...my one grandmother is 91 and wasn't born here. These new world countries just tend to cause people to forget about or cast off culture - which is religion itself for us, much more than a handful of supernatural beliefs. There is a battle of sorts between the sameness, neutrality, impartiality that benefits consumerism and the old ways that are time-tested and sing to the deepest parts of us experiencing this life.

                  I think what I try to say when I say that is that many of the internet Heathens who pontificate on this subject are several generations American, caught up in the "I, me mine" (apologies to George Harrison) of 20th and 21st century America, and are romanticizing the past. That's probably a bit over-psychoanalytical, but it's a thought.

                  As far as I'm concerned, this is one of those stupid arguments that recon Heathens like to have that makes me roll my eyes. This is why I think you should come be NT, Thorbjorn... you think like an NTer, not an Asatruar
                  I do a lot of eye-rolling too. I'm going to have to look at NT more. You just might be right.

                  Thanks.
                  śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
                  śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Re: Tribes and tribe building

                    Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                    ...This is why I think you should come be NT, Thorbjorn... you think like an NTer, not an Asatruar
                    BOOOOYAAAAHHH!!! You're right, evidently this is what I've been all along: http://www.northernpaganism.org/gene...heathenry.html

                    A few excerpts for the tl;dr crowd.

                    However, the short form is that "recons" are pretty strict about basing as much as possible on written sources, or "lore", while recon-derived religion starts with lore and goes from there, using inspiration, divine communication, and sometimes imagination to fill in the gaps in the lore and adapt the religion to modern times. If you wanted to put it more bluntly, for recons the primary source material is the Ancestors. For recon-derived practices, the primary source material is the Gods, and the lore of the Ancestors is merely a means to an end, creating enough context that one can access the Gods and continue from there.

                    ...

                    While the focus in Heathenry is on the Folkway and the group -- and there's nothing wrong with that -- in NT Paganism the focus tends to be more on the personal revelation. Our Gods are very real to us; they aren't two-dimensional archetypes or distant figures with whom we cannot hope to speak until we resemble our medieval ancestors. NT Paganism encourages and respects personal devotion and connection with one's deities. If we are hardline about any specific belief, it is that we are firm in our polytheism.

                    ...

                    This tolerance extends beyond the Northern pantheons; it is fine to work with non-Northern deities in one's own private practice, or belong to non-Northern-Tradition religious groups, unlike some reconstructionist groups who encourage theological separatism. A significant number of Northern Tradition Pagans are dual-tradition, because our sect is fine with that. The majority are Norse and Celtic, but there are a few other combinations. There are also some of us who work primarily with Norse deities, but have the occasional strong and rewarding relationship with a God or Goddess (or two, or three) from another area of the world.

                    I simply could not and cannot accept "the gods don't listen to us as individuals, only to the tribe and community". This all goes back to my original question about tribes: if we have no "Heathen tribes" nowadays, who the Hel are the gods listening to?
                    Last edited by thalassa; 29 Mar 2016, 07:14. Reason: color format
                    śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
                    śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Re: Tribes and tribe building

                      Originally posted by Thorbjorn View Post
                      "... the mental stress or discomfort experienced by an individual who holds two or more contradictory beliefs, ideas, or values at the same time... ".

                      (snip)

                      I think what I try to say when I say that is that many of the internet Heathens who pontificate on this subject are several generations American, caught up in the "I, me mine" (apologies to George Harrison) of 20th and 21st century America, and are romanticizing the past. That's probably a bit over-psychoanalytical, but it's a thought

                      TBH, the latter bit you've written here sums up my issue with recons in general, as a whole (not saying that they all do this, but more often than not, more of them seem to than don't). Also with the "yay, nature is my fluffy friend" crowd.

                      Regarding the first bit...What would a Heathen have done if he got stuck elsewhere without his community? He'd have been solo and done his own thing the best he could, he'd have gone with whatever the locals did, he'd have mixed them up a bit, or he'd just give it up. I don't see us as being any different, regardless of our chosen traditions.
                      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                      sigpic

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Re: Tribes and tribe building

                        I wonder if you might not get an idea by looking at other groups who suffer the same breakdown in the notion of tribes and tribal building. By that I mean the many who try to include Native American influences in their practices or Aboriginal influences. Whether they are Heathens or based on the Native American's I see this sense of separating the tribe from the religion. Yet the religion is more than what the western occultist societies make it. The religion can not really be separated from the culture, the society, the mindset, common experiences and challenges, etc that fuses it all together.

                        I know for Shamanic practitioners we get hammered with the idea of Core Shamanism that tries to strip the "Culture" out of the "Shamanic" practice. Leaving you with part of a skeleton yet never with anything that brings the skeleton to life and brings all the parts together in my opinion. I use a lot of navigational symbology so to me it's like having a keel, maybe a few decks and the ribs of the ship but nothing more. By itself its not seaworthy much less functional though the potential is there to make is so if you add the things that bring it all together. Figure a rudder to steer and guide it, spars, masts, sails, etc to enable it to move, stores to feed its sailors, compartments to provide for their needs to sleep, etc. But all of that tied together through experience and shared goals and desires. Something that is lived, breathed, consumed day in and day out through periods of calm and periods of stress and danger that potentially border on life and death. Sea stories and chanties that tell the story of those who sailed before you and their stories and tales of adventure, morality, ethics, danger as well as success, friendship, trust, failure, life, death that brought it all to life. Songs and stories that also give life a meter and serve to set the timing for certain events and coordination of actions to ensure things are done successfully. It's like getting underway, it's a combined and timed operation of when to cast off lines, when to take them in, which way to turn the rudder, how fast to run the engines and whether they are put forward, backward or a combination of the two, what assistance is given by outside forces, etc.

                        Figure core elements contain all of those functions, sequences, etc but its the total practice and experience that brings them all together. But I do not think getting together once in a while conveys the ties that bind it all together myself. That is what I see missing when Heathens and other practitioners try to celebrate the religion while omitting or ignoring the glue that binds it all together. Yes there are different divisions on the ship and they might have functions that pertain to their division only but their practice also includes all the people who make up the ships crew from the lowest cabin boy to the Captain who runs the ship.

                        But you know what ties us together and brings us together? The experience of having been there. So we don't have to drive for hours though it's not something most of us wouldn't do if it was important. Yet more often than not many times it's observing what and who is around us and looking for signs. Then the signs bring us together for however long or short of a period. A Chiefs anchor, a warfare device, something on a tag, a tattoo, heck even simple word usage. It's funny I suppose but many wouldn't drive 10 minutes up the road to sit and meet yet they'd drive for hours maybe days to go visit an old ship or base or to meet at some reunion. Yes we are separated by time, age, experiences and such but they also tie us from generation to generation. So it is the experience and shared adventure / life that ties us together into a tribe. I think it's also the glue that allows us to meet someone from another service or function such as a firefighter and have a kinship with them. For while the experience is slightly different it's still real close in many ways.

                        Now I have totally lost where I was going with this and what I was trying to say so will end it. Perhaps there is something here that will aide you so will leave it in the hope that it does.
                        I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Tribes and tribe building

                          Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                          TBH, the latter bit you've written here sums up my issue with recons in general, as a whole (not saying that they all do this, but more often than not, more of them seem to than don't). Also with the "yay, nature is my fluffy friend" crowd.

                          Regarding the first bit...What would a Heathen have done if he got stuck elsewhere without his community? He'd have been solo and done his own thing the best he could, he'd have gone with whatever the locals did, he'd have mixed them up a bit, or he'd just give it up. I don't see us as being any different, regardless of our chosen traditions.
                          - - - Updated - - -

                          Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                          ...

                          Now I have totally lost where I was going with this and what I was trying to say so will end it. Perhaps there is something here that will aide you so will leave it in the hope that it does.
                          I think I get it. What I see in referring to the commonality is that there is very little if any today. I think I mentioned the Amish as being probably the closest we get today to tight-knit communities in which no one stands alone. It's almost unthinkable to be solitary in Amish society. We don't have that today, when all we have to do is pick up the phone to get our cars towed to Sears Auto, or Firestone, or Meineke; or put in a claim to the insurance company if our roof gets damaged in a windstorm, then wait for the roofers to come. No one needs anyone who is not a professional service provider.
                          śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
                          śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Tribes and tribe building

                            Originally posted by Thorbjorn View Post
                            Agreed. However I think the key phrase is "in the same area". With Heathens spread so thin, and few and far between. I wonder how cohesive a tribe of people who are hours away from each other would be?
                            There are people doing it. Some have people who travel and some have online groups. But I think you would really have to fit in with the beliefs to invest time in one. Heathens aren't a unified group by any means.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Re: Tribes and tribe building

                              Originally posted by Ula View Post
                              Heathens aren't a unified group by any means.
                              śivāya vishnu rūpaya śivaḥ rūpaya vishnave
                              śivasya hridayam viṣṇur viṣṇoscha hridayam śivaḥ

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