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Thread: Forced chemotherapy? Yay or ixnay?

  1. #11
    Bronze Member Bartmanhomer's Avatar
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    Re: Forced chemotherapy? Yay or ixnay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    Yes. But she wasn't at legal age at the time.
    Though both her and her mother agreed to alternative treatment together.
    This isn't about her rights now. She's got a right to rot away with her dumb ass all she wants and eat beet root and drink mushroom juice.

    But if the kid was 3 and couldn't agree/disagree with her parents, does the state have the right to force treatment? We seem to think so when the parent does it for their own religious whacko reason as in medicine in the devil etc etc.

    Now the kid is 10. And the kid 'agrees' with the parents to no mainstream treatment. Is the kid capable of making this decision?

    But the kid was 17 and had run a way and was deemed immature and not a mature minor.

    I have no hard opinion. I'm just wondering where the line is.
    I understand that the child (let say 5 or 6 years old) doesn't have any right to choose to refused treatment because the courts safety. But this is a teenager we're talking about. I'm sorry but I think that the teenager is old enough to make her own decision.

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    Re: Forced chemotherapy? Yay or ixnay?

    Do you want a government or an agency of the government to make life and death decisions for you or are you willing to take the responsibility of your own decisions?
    As a minor a person is aided in decision making by the parent or legal guardian. I don't find any place in the constitution (the law of the land) that gives the government that power.

  3. #13
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: Forced chemotherapy? Yay or ixnay?

    I might wonder if the Gov would have the right to tell me I should eat meat,if even as a child I decide to only eat vegies because the Gov believes meat is good for me,vs just vegies?
    also should the Gov be able to tell me I MUST drink milk,even if I dislike Milk?

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    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Forced chemotherapy? Yay or ixnay?

    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post

    I have no hard opinion. I'm just wondering where the line is.
    There isn't a line...which is why it's considered a classic ethical dilemma. Which admittedly doesn't help anyone going through it. I worked in oncology, on the radiation side, when I was a corpsman...kids are the patients that will break your heart the most. And they are all different, with different abilities, different levels of understanding, different parents... And just as every child is different, so is every type of cancer--the probability of good outcome for cervical cancer diagnosed in a patient that has annual pap smears is radically different than that of a person diagnosed with stage 4 ovarian cancer or with pancreatic cancer. You can't draw a line that isn't arbitrary--there are too many variables to consider.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

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    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Forced chemotherapy? Yay or ixnay?

    When that decision is to pray the appendicitis away, child abuse laws are covered under the promotion of the general welfare purpose for which the Constitution was ordained and established.

    Child abuse laws are state laws too. If one actually believed in states rights, then they'd absolutely believe that the state has the right to decide if not getting treatment for a child's treatable condition is or is not legal.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  6. #16
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    Re: Forced chemotherapy? Yay or ixnay?

    Quote Originally Posted by thalassa View Post
    When that decision is to pray the appendicitis away, child abuse laws are covered under the promotion of the general welfare purpose for which the Constitution was ordained and established.

    Child abuse laws are state laws too. If one actually believed in states rights, then they'd absolutely believe that the state has the right to decide if not getting treatment for a child's treatable condition is or is not legal.
    I'm not entirely sure that using the General Welfare clause here would fly if the feds tried it but it's also a moot point because this was a state action and the Tenth Amendment provides Connecticut any power not claimed by the feds or denied to the states by the US constitution and I don't remember seeing a list off specific authorizations in Connecticut's constitution (though admittedly, I skimmed).
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  7. #17
    Nihilistic Goddess Medusa's Avatar
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    Re: Forced chemotherapy? Yay or ixnay?

    in the same website a few pages later...
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-survive.html
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  8. #18
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Forced chemotherapy? Yay or ixnay?

    This was a rather interesting article on the subject...

    And, on the constitutional question, I'll add this (from the article):

    ...a string of US supreme court decisions that distinguish between freedom of belief and freedom of practice, which affirm the former and limit the latter where it causes harm. These stretch back as far as Reynolds v United States in 1878, which forbade Mormon polygamy, and include Prince v Massachusetts, which affirmed the federal government’s ability to secure the welfare of children even when it conflicts with religious belief.
    But, you know, considering the people that defend these sorts of "religious freedom" laws are the same sort of people that tell people being mistreated or discriminated against to just move or get a job somewhere else...I'm going to go with a dose of their own medicine.

    If you truly believe in the supremacy of states rights, then the state has the right to pass whatever the heck they want in this regard. If you don't like it, move somewhere where they let you pray the *whatever condition you have* away. Idaho is supposed to be good for this.
    Last edited by thalassa; 21 Apr 2016 at 09:13.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  9. #19
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    Re: Forced chemotherapy? Yay or ixnay?

    Government, at any level, has no power over individual rights. Rights can only be restricted when they interfere with the rights of others. "Your right to swing your fist ends at my nose"

  10. #20
    Supporter Hawkfeathers's Avatar
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    Re: Forced chemotherapy? Yay or ixnay?

    Well that's where all the conflict comes in.
    A. I have the right to let my dog run
    B. your dog ate my chickens

    A. I have to right to smoke cigs
    B. I have the right not to inhale 2nd hand smoke

    A. I have the right to play music
    B. I have the right to a night's sleep in my own home

    etc., etc., etc. Courts are full of this.

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