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    Equality

    Do all the laws on the books about equality actually ensure equality? DO they actually mean that every one will get the same pay, treatment, opportunities, etc?

    Consider the ongoing deal with male, female and transgender bathroom usage. Yet the deep idea I think is does a business even have to provide bathroom facilities? We presume they will be there but does it mean they actually will be? Seen more than a few places that either have employee only facilities or no facilities at all. Does equality mean all those places now have to make public facilities available?

    What about pay for instance? Does it mean two people doing the same job will actually be getting the same pay? I imagine in reality it never will. Consider I apply for a job when the need by the company is very demanding so get offered extras to take the job. Yet later on another person applies for a similar job but the demand and need is no longer present so the extra's are not offered. Is that being unequal? Not even considering what skill sets each may have brought to the table and how the company will select one over the other.

    Equality is such a buzz word yet so unrealistic in obtainment.
    I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

    #2
    Re: Equality

    I think equality is doable provided the will to provide and ensure it is there. Take disability equality... the biggest problem is not a person's disability but the way others view them. It's seen as somehow giving the disabled person something other people don't have. And then it's resented so it's not provided if the person responsible can possibly find a way to wriggle out of it. Really of course, it's only trying to level the playing field.

    If we have reached the stage when employers might seriously believe they do not need to provide toilet facilities at all and for anyone, I for one would take great pleasure in peeing all over their floor.
    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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      #3
      Re: Equality

      Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
      I think equality is doable provided the will to provide and ensure it is there. Take disability equality... the biggest problem is not a person's disability but the way others view them. It's seen as somehow giving the disabled person something other people don't have. And then it's resented so it's not provided if the person responsible can possibly find a way to wriggle out of it. Really of course, it's only trying to level the playing field.

      If we have reached the stage when employers might seriously believe they do not need to provide toilet facilities at all and for anyone, I for one would take great pleasure in peeing all over their floor.
      That I think is the illusion of equality. Consider if I am seeking an employee, every one is capable of applying for the job but it's unlikely they all will have the same credentials and skill levels. So there will always be some who are ruled out right off. Others who may get a second look but only one will be hired. The one hired may have a differing pay, bonuses, signing clause than those hired before him/her or will be hired after them. Yet all had the same equal chance to apply for the job. But not all ever had an equal chance of getting in for whatever reason.

      Consider you own a publishing title does that mean you'll publish a book simply because a person has written something they want published? Probably not, especially if it is really a poorly written item. Does that mean then your not an equal opportunity publisher? Realistically yes but not because they didn't have an opportunity to be published but because tey lacked the skill or material to be published.

      The bathroom issue was more given based upon the number of places i've seen that are not facilities or reserved for employee's only. So it was a though I pondered.
      I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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        #4
        Re: Equality

        The exact difficulties depend on what kind of "equality" you are talking about. Equality of opportunity vs equality of outcome.

        When it comes to restrooms specifically, if it's privately owned then the owner should get to decide how people can use it and whether there should be one in the first place.

        If it's publicly owned, then it should be open to the public. Bar none. In other words, I should be able to use any restroom I want as long as my tax dollars are supporting it. I don't care if it's a men's or women's restroom, or a white or colored restroom.
        Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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          #5
          Re: Equality

          Equality laws usually involve equality of access, not equality of provision.

          A woman who immigrated with her husband from Riyadh to become citizens has as much legal right to open up a business as a man born and bred in Islington. She doesn't have the legal right to demand the government subsidizes her so that she earns the same amount as him, for he may work harder at his business than her, or his clientelle might be secretly adverse to giving business to an Arab. This is neither the white Londoner's problem nor his prerogative, but if he knew about it, he may well choose to refuse them service. Then again, he may not. You are not obliged to refuse service to anyone, but you are obliged to not refuse service in certain circumstances, such as those a person cannot choose such as sexual orientation, ethnicity, disability, or other circumstances, such as religion (since I see religion as a choice, any religion, even my own, I can't personally see why this is included, having a faith is not the same as being born with your body below your neck not working, but that's beside the point).

          Ideally, it should be only the government who is not allowed to discriminate for any reason. In most situations this is true. A forum owner may ban a person from the forum for simply holding obnoxious views, but the government cannot censor on the grounds that the beliefs do not line up with the motives of the governing party, or even the whole of parliament.
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            #6
            Re: Equality

            Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
            I think equality is doable provided the will to provide and ensure it is there. Take disability equality... the biggest problem is not a person's disability but the way others view them. It's seen as somehow giving the disabled person something other people don't have. And then it's resented so it's not provided if the person responsible can possibly find a way to wriggle out of it. Really of course, it's only trying to level the playing field.

            If we have reached the stage when employers might seriously believe they do not need to provide toilet facilities at all and for anyone, I for one would take great pleasure in peeing all over their floor.
            Wanted to separate the disability aspect of this from my other reply.

            Disability is a difficult one to work with. In part I think because not only are some invisible so are presumed to be faking but also because of how one became disabled. I've known a few disabled over the years that seemed to think the world owed them a living and all the money they could take. So disgust and anger gets generated real quick for them. Especially so when they constantly speak about all the extra's they buy with those dollars the government gives them.

            It's like I am disabled due to military service injuries which a lot of people claim "Well you deserve it then". Seen a lot of children and young adults with disability benefits and some accept it others hate upon it. Yet it's funny when it comes to employers and how they treat you and your disability.

            It's like I went to work for the school system for a few years before I could no longer work and the head of HR asked me one day about who decided I was disabled. She didn't really like anyone being labeled or qualified as disabled unless it was from a certain group of agencies. When I told her the US Government, The Veterans Administration and a number of doctors you could see it in her face that she didn't like it. Yet that was just the way she was. Yet what she liked even less was when you didn't cower or bow down before her when she spoke. Didn't have it in my makeup, especially after 23 years in the military and retiring as a Naval Chief Petty Officer (CPO). I heard she asked my boss later what he though i'd do and he informed her i'd take them to court if I though I was being hosed over. Funny what finally changed her mind was not my disability or what i'd do but the fact I had a degree and had been involved in teaching in the military and was Adjunct Faculty for a couple of college level schools. Disability didn't really count but that degree sure did. heck even in the office I was working in the school system was those with degree's and those without. If you had one then you were treated better many times but nothing you could say caused issues.
            I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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              #7
              Re: Equality

              Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
              Consider you own a publishing title does that mean you'll publish a book simply because a person has written something they want published? Probably not, especially if it is really a poorly written item. Does that mean then your not an equal opportunity publisher? Realistically yes but not because they didn't have an opportunity to be published but because tey lacked the skill or material to be published.
              Okay, but publishing is not about publishing something because someone wants to be in print. Disability is something different. Suppose for example that the manuscript was poorly written because the writer had dyslexia. Do you think I would turn it down because of that? Really?
              www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


              Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                #8
                Re: Equality

                Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
                Okay, but publishing is not about publishing something because someone wants to be in print. Disability is something different. Suppose for example that the manuscript was poorly written because the writer had dyslexia. Do you think I would turn it down because of that? Really?
                Truthfully don't know. Not saying because of dyslexia but potentially content. Though even dyslexia depending upon what would be needed to make it readable / usable.
                I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                  #9
                  Re: Equality

                  Much of the topic of equality is in truth a product of less than the last 100 years. Some aspects of equality have even a shorter history. Workers rights are really a very recent thing,having been won through sweat and blood by labor movements. Medical coverage for retired people was created by LBJ,so that is like 40-70 years ago(some of it was kinds of pending before it became a legal thing. Equality is an evolving thing,its boundaries being expanded over time by people.

                  It was senior Bush that pushed for disability rights,and non discrimination against disabled people. It in its history has been filled with much arguing as to what is discrimination,and what is not,in a legal vain.

                  It seems we are in one of the "Growth" phases and it may or may not be codified as law.

                  As always,good luck with equality for all..only time will tell the whole story.
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                    #10
                    Re: Equality

                    Equality is a constant fight and will always be a constant fight. The moment the fight for equality ends is the moment equality begins to dissappear. The U.S. Labor movement is an excellent example. As the Unions dissappear corporations and businesses find it easier to exploit the workers and influence Labor politics-which is a real shame considered how many died for the working man. The Labor movement in the U.S. has a brutal history.

                    Anti-discriminatory give people who are discriminated agaianst a legal recourse. It offers protections to people who otherwise have little power. The legality of the eauality is just as important as the idea and practice of it.

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                      #11
                      Re: Equality

                      Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                      Truthfully don't know. Not saying because of dyslexia but potentially content. Though even dyslexia depending upon what would be needed to make it readable / usable.
                      Well when I have authors who have dyslexia I work with them and help make their content readable. I won't turn down a book where the author has tried hard but needs help. If the content is worth it then I help. I can't even understand why anyone would think it's okay to live in a world where people don't feel that way.

                      If people have a problem with invisible disabilities, they need educating.
                      www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                      Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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                        #12
                        Re: Equality

                        Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
                        Well when I have authors who have dyslexia I work with them and help make their content readable. I won't turn down a book where the author has tried hard but needs help. If the content is worth it then I help. I can't even understand why anyone would think it's okay to live in a world where people don't feel that way.

                        If people have a problem with invisible disabilities, they need educating.
                        Bolded mine

                        But isn't that the catch in the system, if the content is worth it. It's equality based upon the premise that the content is of worth based upon some internal scale or value we use to judge the worth of something. Thus the illusion of equality.

                        I do agree though that if the person has tried hard and might have limitations due to education or disability we should aide them as best we can. Though that to I suppose on some scales goes back to how we identify and judge the quality of ignorance and stupidity. Figure ignorance is due to lack of skill, knowledge or education while stupidity is due to willful refusal to change or accept a truth differing from ones own truths or positions I believe.

                        I also agree that when it comes to invisible disabilities people need to be educated. The sad part is that far to often it's invisible and people are judged against a lack of knowledge about a given individual more than a lack of awareness of an invisible illness I think. So judgement is passed based upon corrupted observation vice actual personal knowledge of the individual. Not right but it is reality and no law, change to dynamics or such will change that unfortunately. We are a society of people separated by our phones, computers, etc where in the past it seems we where more connected via the fence and public gatherings where everyone knew everyone in some capacity. Disability was still an issue but you more often than not at least knew the person or had some sort of direct awareness of them.
                        I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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                          #13
                          Re: Equality

                          Equal doesn't mean the same.
                          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                            #14
                            Re: Equality

                            Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                            Do all the laws on the books about equality actually ensure equality? DO they actually mean that every one will get the same pay, treatment, opportunities, etc?
                            There are laws against murder, yet people are still murdered.

                            There are laws against theft, yet people are still robbed.

                            Nobody expects a law to fix a problem 100% of the time. At best, it may reduce the problem, somewhat.

                            However, what a law does do is give people recourse to legal action when the law is violated. Without a law, there is no help that can come from the legal system.
                            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                              #15
                              Re: Equality

                              Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                              Bolded mine

                              But isn't that the catch in the system, if the content is worth it. It's equality based upon the premise that the content is of worth based upon some internal scale or value we use to judge the worth of something. Thus the illusion of equality.

                              I do agree though that if the person has tried hard and might have limitations due to education or disability we should aide them as best we can. Though that to I suppose on some scales goes back to how we identify and judge the quality of ignorance and stupidity. Figure ignorance is due to lack of skill, knowledge or education while stupidity is due to willful refusal to change or accept a truth differing from ones own truths or positions I believe.

                              I also agree that when it comes to invisible disabilities people need to be educated. The sad part is that far to often it's invisible and people are judged against a lack of knowledge about a given individual more than a lack of awareness of an invisible illness I think. So judgement is passed based upon corrupted observation vice actual personal knowledge of the individual. Not right but it is reality and no law, change to dynamics or such will change that unfortunately. We are a society of people separated by our phones, computers, etc where in the past it seems we where more connected via the fence and public gatherings where everyone knew everyone in some capacity. Disability was still an issue but you more often than not at least knew the person or had some sort of direct awareness of them.
                              Yes, I get your drift. But when one reads a lot of manuscripts, the general problem is that they don't have anything to say. That's quite different from not being able to express themselves as well as they might. Then there are people who cut and paste (and hope I won't notice), or people who simply want an opinion before going off and writing for themselves.

                              I don't turn down a manuscript because of dyslexia (which is usually able to spot.) Dyslexia can be helped. Even if I turn a MS down, I always suggest ways it could be improved, invite them to try again, or even suggest a different publisher. Writers who have worked with me know I help out with information, journals etc. It's just common sense. I want to publish books, but I want them to be the best book the author can make them.

                              I like your differentiating between ignorance and stupidity.
                              And I do believe the media has done massive damage to the way people view disabilities. We tend to forget we are all only a hair's breadth away from being seriously disabled ourselves.
                              www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                              Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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