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    The discussion now:Should animals be in zoos?

    This has started to be discussed because of the Gorilla being killed in the news.
    Reminder,this is NOT PETA vs the world,just your opinion about zoo's and their existence,and peoples ideas that animals should not be held in them.

    Please try not to make it a debate because this is an important idea that may effect how we treat animals in the future:

    So your opinion please.

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    #2
    Re: The discussion now:Should animals be in zoos?

    I'm not for sure. I think zoos can be educational, but I also think that we have to treat the animals with respect. They're not just exhibits. They are creatures and deserve our respect. So I think zoos can be a good idea, but they need to know how to handle the animals and the animals can't just be used for show.
    Anubisa

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      #3
      Re: The discussion now:Should animals be in zoos?

      Okay. I'll bite. Zoos as originally created were atrocious. Many of them remain so. As a child at my local zoo, I rode both a Galapagos tortoise and an elephant who was regularly abused by its keepers. Abuse that would be considered torture as done to humans. The enclosures were concrete and steel bar cells. The animals presented weird ritualistic behaviors. I loved it, not for the abuse, but because it introduced me to so many wonderful animals. I carry that love for the animals with me. Later, zoos just became so creepy and weird to me because of the love I had for those animals.

      I last went to that zoo a couple of years ago. They have transitioned to almost no bars-just waiting to build the last of the new habitats. The exhibits are safer for the animals and humans, and yet increase the intimacy of the encounter. Endangered species are recognized as such and are no longer toddler playthings. It is clear that the animals are cared for with great consideration and to a measurable standard. There are sophisticated breeding and veterinary programs. Education is based on conservation. I still heard a child spontaneously shout "Look, a cheetah!" with some of the deepest joy I have ever encountered. He will no doubt carry some of that feeling for animals with him for the rest of his life.

      That said, some of the animals still displayed disturbing behaviors. Because of the love for animals that I developed at the zoo, I made an effort to learn about these animals, and I worry about the effects of their captivity. Some animals are fine in captivity, and may even thrive. My concern is that some of them do okay-ish, but don't thrive. Unfortunately, there are a number of the not really thriving group who are also in the threatened or endangered group. It may be the best for the survival of the species, and even the particular animal, for it to live in a zoo. Personally, I think that zoos are harmful for polar bears and great apes in particular. I also think that if there is hope for these animals, zoos will have to be involved. Partly this is for the breeding programs, and partly for the conservation education that changes the way people view the animals, and the way humans interact with their habitats.

      So. I still have very mixed feelings. And some zoos are pretty slow to get with the program, presumably because of money.
      I am coming up on some questions that I cannot really answer yet:

      Do we have the responsibility to intervene in this way, when extinction is at risk?
      Do we have the right to intervene in this way, even when extinction is at risk?
      Is it better to save the species and damage the individual animal?
      Is it better to live a long life in captivity, or to die young but wild?
      How much damage do we still do to cultural outlooks on animals when we hold them captive for our entertainment and education, even when we have a noble purpose in saving the animal?

      I lean toward forward thinking zoos, but my reservations are deep.

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        #4
        Re: The discussion now:Should animals be in zoos?

        Yes and no. I'm not an expert by any means, but it seems that zoos can play a big role in things like education, research and conservation. As long as the animals have spacious environments with lots of stimuli, I think zoos can be positive.

        I do think there might be a line with the types of animals that should be in zoos, though. Apes seem a bit too close to us to be stared at behind glass, and I always got the feeling when I saw them in zoos that they knew what was going on (that people were looking at them behind the glass). IF we have these kinds of animals in zoos, I think we should be more careful and aware of how we do it.

        I also think zoos need to educate the public better on how to behave at zoos. Yeah, kids will be kids, but knocking at glass and shouting at the animals is not acceptable behaviour. At some zoos (Berlin's Tierpark), the public seems very well behaved overall, whereas others (Barcelona), people seem to just do whatever they want and it seems to make the animals miserable. I think zoos should have more staff to deal with this kind of thing. In Barcelona there was literally no one around to keep people from disturbing the animals. I know that Spain was in crisis at the time (and still is, if we really look at the data), but that needs to be in the budget.

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          #5
          Re: The discussion now:Should animals be in zoos?

          It depends on the zoo.

          I absolutely think there is a role for zoos when it comes to conservation and education and research. But I think that it is critical that it is done with the best interests of the animal, physically and mentally (both of which are necessary for a number of animals to reproduce successfully in captivity).

          Sure, I would prefer we didn't need them...but...we do. The research and conservation arm of some zoos are amazing--and they couldn't do what they do without the support of people drawn in from their experiences at the zoo.
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            #6
            Re: The discussion now:Should animals be in zoos?

            If they have great habitats to live in, are treated well, there is an educational element and breeding program with animals going into the wild when acceptable.
            Last edited by Ula; 07 Jun 2016, 05:22.

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              #7
              Re: The discussion now:Should animals be in zoos?

              San Francisco's zoo was at one time really going down hill,and then some Corporations and animal welfare groups stepped in and raised a LOT of money to upgrade and refurbish the zoo. The company I worked for was involved in that. We had(after the Zoo was "Fixed") a Company DAY at the zoo,with lots of eats,and stuff for the kids,and a fund raiser to do even more to make the Zoo what it is these days.(BTW,SF has free days once a month,usually only known by people that live in the city) Last Thursday of the month if you wondered. All Museums,Art Museums,the aquarium,and the Zoo..also you can view the cable car house,where the cables are powered..That can make for a fun day.
              MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

              all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
              NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
              don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




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                #8
                Re: The discussion now:Should animals be in zoos?

                My boyfriend saw an interesting documentary about sea otters yesterday. It had a part where they were looking at sea otters in a zoo in the Netherlands and observing how they behaved. Otters are one species of animals known to use objects as tools. They use seaweed to wrap up their young, kelp to keep them from drifting off while they sleep, and rocks as tools to open shells for food. Anyway, the sea otters in the Netherlands not only used the rocks to open shells, but also to try to escape their enclosure. They were bashing the rocks around the walls and glass, trying to get it to break. The zookeepers had to take the rocks away, but when they did, the otters started using shells for the same purpose.

                I thought of this thread for a couple of reasons:

                1) This is a really interesting and valuable observation about otter behaviour.

                2) Those otters really didn't want to be in captivity.

                On the plus side, the zoo seemed to do everything it could to make the otters happier where they were.

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                  #9
                  Re: The discussion now:Should animals be in zoos?

                  Many animals are a lot more intelligent than people give them credit for. I watched some "Nature" videos where the animals were pretty much unaware of the human presence,some by motion Sensing cameras and in some cases hidden blinds,and using Odor masking stuff. The "Natural" behavior was very interesting and telling.
                  MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                  all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                  NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                  don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                  sigpic

                  my new page here,let me know what you think.


                  nothing but the shadow of what was

                  witchvox
                  http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

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                    #10
                    Re: The discussion now:Should animals be in zoos?

                    I was looking to see if there was an article about the sea otter thing I posted about (there isn't), and found a story about a bear at a zoo that hurled a rock at the glass in its enclosure: http://edition.cnn.com/2015/07/07/us...mashes-window/

                    Bears also use rocks as tools.

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                      #11
                      Re: The discussion now:Should animals be in zoos?

                      Kind of brings to mind the planet of the apes(the second new one,where Caesar becomes intelligent) and plans and gets all the others to follow him
                      MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                      all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                      NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                      don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                      sigpic

                      my new page here,let me know what you think.


                      nothing but the shadow of what was

                      witchvox
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                        #12
                        Re: The discussion now:Should animals be in zoos?

                        When I was little, my parents often took me to the Bronx Zoo. I used to cry about the big cats, a black panther in particular, because back then they were just in cages, and he paced nonstop and I could see and sense his fear, anger, and hopelessness. I can still see his eyes. The elephants made me sad too. I heard their rumblings and knew they weren't happy. Nowadays the habitats are 100% better. I went back there in the late 90's and it was a different world. For conservation purposes, I think it's fine, but we need to build stronger barriers to keep stupid humans out!
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                          #13
                          Re: The discussion now:Should animals be in zoos?

                          How are you supposed to be interested and care about a tiny lion on a 40 inch tv screen?

                          Of course you need to have a personal experience. Caring about animals teaches humans to be less crappy.
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                            #14
                            Re: The discussion now:Should animals be in zoos?

                            Originally posted by Medusa View Post
                            How are you supposed to be interested and care about a tiny lion on a 40 inch tv screen?

                            Of course you need to have a personal experience. Caring about animals teaches humans to be less crappy.
                            I agree. As a kid, the zoo was bad. But it sparked all my interest in animals and "nature." Now that they are so much better for the animals, they serve the same purpose - at least for some kids - are are less harmful for the animals. Much better than farms, at least, where the animals are a "product."
                            Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                              #15
                              Re: The discussion now:Should animals be in zoos?

                              Here's an essay that disagrees with me:

                              Taking children to an aquarium is a lesson in cruelty

                              While I am in quasi-agreement with this author, it argues more for ethical sourcing and treatment of animals (in this case, fish) than it does against the use of zoos- aquaria, IMHO.
                              Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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