Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

what's happening in the UK

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    Re: what's happening in the UK

    If I assist negligently killing hundreds of thousands of people with a bad decision it would stand to reason I would be arrested and very much despised.

    But if I were a bourgeois political leader....

    Comment


      #17
      Re: what's happening in the UK

      Originally posted by Denarius View Post
      That's kind of my point, at it's heart Conservatism (especially the radical sort) isn't very conservative. I prefer the term "reactionary."
      But that's kind of my point--when a bunch of people who believe/do/say *whatever* go around calling themselves X, then they've effectively changed the definition of the term. Because words evolve.
      Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
      sigpic

      Comment


        #18
        Re: what's happening in the UK

        Originally posted by ThePaganMafia View Post
        If I assist negligently killing hundreds of thousands of people with a bad decision it would stand to reason I would be arrested and very much despised.

        But if I were a bourgeois political leader....
        There are politicians here who are calling for Tony Blair to be brought to trial.
        www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


        Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

        Comment


          #19
          Re: what's happening in the UK

          Originally posted by iris View Post
          I don't usually care enough about politics to get the terms right... but I would say that the conservative side of this dilemma are the people who have been campaigning to leave the EU basiclly since they joined...?
          That's the rub. Maybe if it were a left-wing group campaigning for social change and more autonomy for social services in the UK, more of us here would be for it. But that's not who is running the "Leave" show. The "Leave" campaign was championed by right wing politicians who have previously waxed poetic about privatisation, boosting security and preserving "British" values. That's why that NHS bus ad was so suspect even from the beginning. Even if that money WAS made available by leaving the EU (which it won't be), those people were never going to give it to the NHS. They'd probably just cut taxes and call it a success on their part. And it's not just fringe parties that I'm talking about here. The more right-wing and populist of the Conservatives are mostly the ones fighting for the reins at the moment. So, yeah. No one with left-wing values wants those people running the country.

          As for the chaos in the Labour party...gah. It's so hard to say not being there. In a lot of respects, Jeremy Corbyn is the face of the new left in the UK (and in a lot of Europe, actually). If he loses leadership, someone more "establishment" will take over. But maybe that's what Labour supporters want right now. I don't really know.

          - - - Updated - - -

          Originally posted by ThePaganMafia View Post
          The EU is a Neoliberal and undemocratic nightmare. Ask Greece how EU austerity measures and the removal of their democratically elected leaders has gone. It's hilarious watching Liberals fall over themselves about a Democratic decision to leave a Union that is a bureaucratic mess in which workers and their trade unions have lost bargaining power. It is an undemocratic system in which trade deals are worked in secret and the poorer EU countries get exploited by more powerful member States such as France and Germany.
          It is, and believe it or not, it's not all fun and games in France and Germany, either. Just ask any farmer who has to compete with the much cheaper produce from Poland (spoiler alert: it's basically impossible without resorting to slave labour or subsidies for small organic farms). Or the people who work in factories who get told that their wages have to be kept down in order to remain "competitive" (Germany has some of the lowest wages in Western Europe). The EU isn't popular with everyone here, either, and there's a reason for that.

          But scrapping the EU isn't the answer. For all the bureaucratic nightmares that it presents, it's been a huge force of stability and peace over the last few decades (in the form of both the EEC and the EU). It has also offered a lot of support in terms of subsidies for regional heritage products, arts and culture, has been a fairly instrumental force in the realm of health and safety (the EU's stance is very conservative on foods and drugs, which I generally appreciate), and has done a lot to promote worker's rights across borders.

          I (and a lot of other EU-critical EU supporters, ha) think that the answer has to be restoring more power to regions (not countries - regions within countries...this is Europe. Saxony is a world away from Bayern, etc) and offering more support to small businesses, small farmers and small producers so that they can better compete across the common market against their larger competitors. Oh, and fixing the tax loopholes, because, yikes.

          Comment


            #20
            Re: what's happening in the UK

            Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
            the answer has to be restoring more power to regions (not countries - regions within countries...this is Europe. Saxony is a world away from Bayern, etc) and offering more support to small businesses, small farmers and small producers so that they can better compete across the common market against their larger competitors.
            That's the thing though, multi-national corporations out-compete small businesses and drive down wages largely due to internationalism.

            Start up or move to somewhere with low corporate tax rate, manufacture and/or source from places with cheap labor and lax regulation, hire non-union migrant workers, then flood the markets with cheap goods because there's little to no protectionism.

            If they had to hire local, union, workers. Use local resources, importing only when necessary. Manufacture locally. Be subject to local taxation. A lot of the advantages they have evaporate. Combine that with doing whatever possible to reduce their influence over government policy, and megacorps will collapse under their own weight. Something I see as necessary and desirable.

            In other words, if I had my way the post-Brexit chaos and market instability would be tame. Global markets are fundamentally corrupt, we should burn it to the ground and salt the earth.

            Originally posted by thalassa View Post
            they've effectively changed the definition of the term. Because words evolve.
            Like how "literally" now means "figuratively?" Evolution of words is one thing, but I'm just annoyed at how words get muddy and indistinct over time. Especially political terminology. I fail to see how becoming more vague, arcane, loaded with baggage, and utterly divorced from etymology is "evolution."

            The left-right implications are annoying too, because reactionary is exactly the word to describe a lot of the political discussion post-Brexit. As has been pointed out, leftist reaction.

            Maybe I'm just been conservative and/or reactionary when it comes to language. :angst:
            Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

            Comment


              #21
              Re: what's happening in the UK

              Originally posted by Denarius View Post
              .[/I]



              Like how "literally" now means "figuratively?" Evolution of words is one thing, but I'm just annoyed at how words get muddy and indistinct over time. Especially political terminology. I fail to see how becoming more vague, arcane, loaded with baggage, and utterly divorced from etymology is "evolution."

              [/I]Maybe I'm just been conservative and/or reactionary when it comes to language. :angst:

              The problem is that people think that evolution is directional...that there is a hierarchy, and that each generational change is good somewhere "higher"...dare I say, progressive...

              Evolution is just change.
              Last edited by thalassa; 06 Jul 2016, 16:33.
              Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
              sigpic

              Comment


                #22
                Re: what's happening in the UK

                Change that isn't for the better, is for the worse.
                Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: what's happening in the UK

                  Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                  Change that isn't for the better, is for the worse.
                  Not necessarily. History is a long game, from which the outcome isn't definitive for decades, sometimes more.
                  Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                  sigpic

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: what's happening in the UK

                    Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                    Change that isn't for the better, is for the worse.
                    The list of fields where this assertion is at best subjective isn't precisely short so do you want to apply it somewhere specific?

                    Otherwise, shrug, I start most of my chess games against a certain man with g3 or Nf3. Tomorrow (hypothetically, since neither of our current games end tonight and I don't what I'm starting with in the next one till the next one), I'll start with d4. I'm familiar enough with both positions to play roughly equally from both and my opponent routinely defeats me in both. How exactly is switching to d4 tomorrow going to be worse for either one of us? He still has a 95% chance of kicking my ass and there is still a roughly 5% chance that he'll make an error that I can exploit to turn things.
                    life itself was a lightsaber in his hands; even in the face of treachery and death and hopes gone cold, he burned like a candle in the darkness. Like a star shining in the black eternity of space.

                    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

                    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

                    John Rowlands, The Grey King by Susan Cooper

                    "You come from the Lord Adam and the Lady Eve", said Aslan. "And that is both honour enough to erect the head of the poorest beggar, and shame enough to bow the shoulders of the greatest emperor on earth; be content."

                    Aslan, Prince Caspian by CS Lewis


                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: what's happening in the UK

                      Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                      That's the thing though, multi-national corporations out-compete small businesses and drive down wages largely due to internationalism.

                      Start up or move to somewhere with low corporate tax rate, manufacture and/or source from places with cheap labor and lax regulation, hire non-union migrant workers, then flood the markets with cheap goods because there's little to no protectionism.

                      If they had to hire local, union, workers. Use local resources, importing only when necessary. Manufacture locally. Be subject to local taxation. A lot of the advantages they have evaporate. Combine that with doing whatever possible to reduce their influence over government policy, and megacorps will collapse under their own weight. Something I see as necessary and desirable.

                      In other words, if I had my way the post-Brexit chaos and market instability would be tame. Global markets are fundamentally corrupt, we should burn it to the ground and salt the earth.



                      Like how "literally" now means "figuratively?" Evolution of words is one thing, but I'm just annoyed at how words get muddy and indistinct over time. Especially political terminology. I fail to see how becoming more vague, arcane, loaded with baggage, and utterly divorced from etymology is "evolution."

                      The left-right implications are annoying too, because reactionary is exactly the word to describe a lot of the political discussion post-Brexit. As has been pointed out, leftist reaction.

                      Maybe I'm just been conservative and/or reactionary when it comes to language. :angst:
                      The EU *does* have the potential to help even the playing field, though. In some fields, it already does this. Regions that produce specialty heritage products (think Champagne and the like...basically if it's a European product that is named after its region, it probably falls under this) get a lot of benefits in the form of funding and protection from the EU. There are also lots of grants that go to arts organisations to help them stay afloat in the face of the global entertainment industry. The key is to extend that further.

                      The EU can choose which producers and businesses get funding and which do not. I think cutting funding to large corporate operations would be really helpful and would help even the playing field for smaller players.

                      One of the huge reasons a lot of people supported the "Leave" campaign is the funding that the UK sends over to the EU. But this issue is that this funding actually goes back to EU countries in a lot of ways. The UK tends to reap fewer benefits than a lot of other countries as EU funding tries its best to be somewhat progressive (allocating more funds to poorer countries and all that), but a big reality is that a lot of organisations and businesses in the UK simply do not apply for funding as often as continental ones do. There was an article in the Guardian a few years ago (https://www.theguardian.com/culture-...k-applications) that outlined that, even though UK arts and culture organisations are among the most successful applicants for EU grants, UK organisations make up a much smaller part of overall applications compared to a lot of other countries. Basically, the benefits are there for them, but they're not taking advantage of them. I think another BIG problem within the EU is that a lot of people just aren't aware of what the EU does and how it can benefit them. That's not to say that there aren't major issues, but I think understanding it better would be a huge help.

                      The other reality is that even non-EU countries have to compete with the EU. Switzerland and Norway manage it well, but it can still be a challenge. The other thing to consider about those countries though is that they have *never* been a part of the EU. The UK is in a different position. A lot of businesses are based there to reap the benefits of being an EU country. When the UK exits the EU, those businesses will no longer be eligible for those benefits. So, those businesses will likely leave. There are already a lot of negotiations going on between companies and other EU countries to see who can entice what to base themselves in their countries. If the EU started extending fewer benefits to larger companies, perhaps some of this wouldn't happen, but there are still side benefits that will always be there for any company based in the EU.

                      Taxation issues aren't really going to go away by leaving the EU. The EU actually has a lot of potential to solve these issues in that it could break down a lot of barriers to transparency between countries and negotiate tax rules that benefit everyone (ie. no more tax havens in Luxembourg...why oh why is this still legal??)

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: what's happening in the UK

                        In my mind, there is nothing that the EU can do that individual nations cannot. As it stands, I have not been convinced that it is anything other than a way to subvert democracy and nationalism. Values that I believe in, strongly.

                        As far as I am concerned, it is trying to be a happy medium between the USSR and the UN. In other words skirting the line between authoritarian imperialism and utter irrelevancy.

                        That's not even getting into how I find it fundamentally deleterious to national security, culture, and non-international (and non-corporate) commerce.
                        Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

                        Comment


                          #27
                          Re: what's happening in the UK

                          Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                          In my mind, there is nothing that the EU can do that individual nations cannot. As it stands, I have not been convinced that it is anything other than a way to subvert democracy and nationalism. Values that I believe in, strongly.

                          As far as I am concerned, it is trying to be a happy medium between the USSR and the UN. In other words skirting the line between authoritarian imperialism and utter irrelevancy.

                          That's not even getting into how I find it fundamentally deleterious to national security, culture, and non-international (and non-corporate) commerce.
                          I think, maybe, your feelig of how small some of these 'nations' are is off. We're not american sized. Really, the entire population of my country fits nicely in paris... there's a limit to what a tiny country can do on its own. Working with others is necessary, and the EU has done lots of good, has lots of potential.
                          personally I think nationalism is... silly? Sure, love your country. But we live in an international world, we can't just throw that away. Even if we wanted to, it's too late. Better learn to love other cultres equally.
                          and... the USSR collapsed in 1991 if I'm not mistaken.

                          This is just my personal feeling, but I don't think you fully understand the role that the EU plays. It's not perfect, far from it. They've done some stypid stuff. There are people running it that weren't all elected by the public. But you cannot call it irrelevant if you understand every aspect of it. I don't myself. But I know enough to realize that our farmers would be a lot worse off without the help they get. It givesme the right to work and study in another european country without problems, just as they can... not a bad thing for me. Maybe because I believe a united world is better than 'each to their own'. We have a clause in our membership that means we have our own currency, there are a few other exceptions to the general rules... because we said no, we don't want that. Eu isn't the big bully making the small countries dance as it pleases, we actually have a say...
                          but don't mind my rantings .Danie makes some good points.
                          You remind me of the babe
                          What babe?
                          The babe with the power
                          What power?
                          The Power of voodoo
                          Who do?
                          You do!
                          Do what?
                          Remind me of the babe!

                          Army of Darkness: Guardians of the Chat

                          Comment


                            #28
                            Re: what's happening in the UK

                            I'm not saying be isolationist, I'm just saying that you can accomplish all of that through democracy and as sovereign nations. There's nothing stopping you from having open borders, giving and receiving foreign aid, having an international currency, or whatever... except democracy, people like me having a fair say in how their countries are run.
                            Last edited by Denarius; 07 Jul 2016, 02:10.
                            Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Re: what's happening in the UK

                              Much of the problem is that Wealth is considered more important than the care and concern for our brothers and sisters,and that all life is sacred. The saying "For the love of money is the root of all evil" hits at the very core of why humans neglect the well being of others.
                              MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

                              all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
                              NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
                              don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




                              sigpic

                              my new page here,let me know what you think.


                              nothing but the shadow of what was

                              witchvox
                              http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

                              Comment


                                #30
                                Re: what's happening in the UK

                                Originally posted by iris View Post
                                I think, maybe, your feelig of how small some of these 'nations' are is off. We're not american sized. Really, the entire population of my country fits nicely in paris... there's a limit to what a tiny country can do on its own. Working with others is necessary, and the EU has done lots of good, has lots of potential.
                                personally I think nationalism is... silly? Sure, love your country. But we live in an international world, we can't just throw that away. Even if we wanted to, it's too late. Better learn to love other cultres equally.
                                and... the USSR collapsed in 1991 if I'm not mistaken.
                                Pretty much. It would be great if each country could do it on its own, but other than maybe Germany, most have to compete with superpowers. We can't just undo globalisation overnight. A country like Italy and especially like Poland would have a lot of trouble competing with, say, China. Within the EU, they have to compete with big players like Germany, but at least they also get support from said big players.


                                In general and not in response to iris, some other things I think more people (even a lot of people in EU countries) need to consider:

                                -Yes, the EU can be undemocratic in some ways, but in other ways, it works more or less like a parliamentary democracy. Each country elects representatives to the EU parliament based on its own electoral system (eg the UK keeps its first past the post system, Portugal keeps its representative system based on electoral lists, and Germany keeps its hybrid system that uses both). The issue is that so, so few people vote in EU elections. They actually mean something and can actually affect our lives, but the turnout is abysmal. You can't not vote at all and then complain that there is no democracy.

                                -At some point I think unions were mentioned here, but I can't remember who and I don't feel like sorting through three pages of threads to find it. I'd like to point out that a lot of EU countries still have very strong unions (Germany is one). The UK has incredibly weak unions, but it didn't used to. However, it wasn't the EU that eroded British unions; it was 30 years of Tory and New Labour policy. A lot of the same people who are currently arguing against the EU are the same people who think union busting was a great point in British history.
                                Last edited by DanieMarie; 07 Jul 2016, 10:26.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X