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Thread: what's happening in the UK

  1. #11
    Lord Contrarian Denarius's Avatar
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    Re: what's happening in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by iris View Post
    I would say that the conservative side of this dilemma are the people who have been campaigning to leave the EU
    Well, "conservative" just means "opposes radical change" it's (In my opinion) actually the moderate/centrist position as both the far left and right are the ones arguing for radical changes. I would consider both joining the EU forty years ago, and leaving the EU now to be "progressive" and "radical." In the sense of massive political change.

    I would especially consider the remain campaign to be a conservative one, as the arguments were almost all to do with short term consequences and appeals to uncertainty.
    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

  2. #12
    Silver Member Tylluan Penry's Avatar
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    Re: what's happening in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Denarius View Post
    I find it interesting that y'all are taking a conservative mindset here. It's usually my prerogative to argue against progressive activism on an economic basis. Like with raising the minimum wage.
    The EU has problems. Some it has created. Some it has helped. Wales benefits hugely from being in the EU - yet a majority voted to leave (a lot of people didn't realise - they claimed - that leaving the EU would mean losing its grants.)
    Really, over here it's a class thing.
    As in 'Know your place, peasant.'
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  3. #13
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: what's happening in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Denarius View Post
    Well, "conservative" just means "opposes radical change" it's (In my opinion) actually the moderate/centrist position as both the far left and right are the ones arguing for radical changes. I would consider both joining the EU forty years ago, and leaving the EU now to be "progressive" and "radical." In the sense of massive political change.

    That's a bit like saying cows are an animal that makes milk. I mean, so is a lion...and cows do more than make milk. If I were talking about socks, then I could use the word conservative to either mean that my socks were not restrained or that I owned a moderate number of them. TBH, if any recognizable political figure in the US is conservative in this fashion, its Hillary (and the Dems have been conservative in this way for quite some time).

    Politically though, you have to go back to Edmund Burke. Conservatism, at its roots is paternalistic and based thoroughly in appeal to antiquity, does not believe in universal rights or human agency, holds religion and government (specifically the majority status quo religion) to be the only restraining power of mankind's base nature, is anti-rational (not irrational, anti-rational), and is monarchical--based in the idea of there being "betters" and "lesser" (social stratification and class-based society). And its not improved since.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
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  4. #14
    Lord Contrarian Denarius's Avatar
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    Re: what's happening in the UK

    That's kind of my point, at it's heart Conservatism (especially the radical sort) isn't very conservative. I prefer the term "reactionary."
    Last edited by Denarius; 06 Jul 2016 at 04:33.
    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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    Silver Member Tylluan Penry's Avatar
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    Re: what's happening in the UK

    More news in the UK today, the Chilcot report into the Iraq war is out. Is it news anywhere else?
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...blair-iraq-war

    It's a bit like Spike Milligan's 'Archduke Ferdinand is alive and well; World War I a mistake' comment.
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    Re: what's happening in the UK

    If I assist negligently killing hundreds of thousands of people with a bad decision it would stand to reason I would be arrested and very much despised.

    But if I were a bourgeois political leader....

  7. #17
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: what's happening in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Denarius View Post
    That's kind of my point, at it's heart Conservatism (especially the radical sort) isn't very conservative. I prefer the term "reactionary."
    But that's kind of my point--when a bunch of people who believe/do/say *whatever* go around calling themselves X, then they've effectively changed the definition of the term. Because words evolve.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  8. #18
    Silver Member Tylluan Penry's Avatar
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    Re: what's happening in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaganMafia View Post
    If I assist negligently killing hundreds of thousands of people with a bad decision it would stand to reason I would be arrested and very much despised.

    But if I were a bourgeois political leader....
    There are politicians here who are calling for Tony Blair to be brought to trial.
    www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


    Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

  9. #19
    lady sings the blues DanieMarie's Avatar
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    Re: what's happening in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by iris View Post
    I don't usually care enough about politics to get the terms right... but I would say that the conservative side of this dilemma are the people who have been campaigning to leave the EU basiclly since they joined...?
    That's the rub. Maybe if it were a left-wing group campaigning for social change and more autonomy for social services in the UK, more of us here would be for it. But that's not who is running the "Leave" show. The "Leave" campaign was championed by right wing politicians who have previously waxed poetic about privatisation, boosting security and preserving "British" values. That's why that NHS bus ad was so suspect even from the beginning. Even if that money WAS made available by leaving the EU (which it won't be), those people were never going to give it to the NHS. They'd probably just cut taxes and call it a success on their part. And it's not just fringe parties that I'm talking about here. The more right-wing and populist of the Conservatives are mostly the ones fighting for the reins at the moment. So, yeah. No one with left-wing values wants those people running the country.

    As for the chaos in the Labour party...gah. It's so hard to say not being there. In a lot of respects, Jeremy Corbyn is the face of the new left in the UK (and in a lot of Europe, actually). If he loses leadership, someone more "establishment" will take over. But maybe that's what Labour supporters want right now. I don't really know.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaganMafia View Post
    The EU is a Neoliberal and undemocratic nightmare. Ask Greece how EU austerity measures and the removal of their democratically elected leaders has gone. It's hilarious watching Liberals fall over themselves about a Democratic decision to leave a Union that is a bureaucratic mess in which workers and their trade unions have lost bargaining power. It is an undemocratic system in which trade deals are worked in secret and the poorer EU countries get exploited by more powerful member States such as France and Germany.
    It is, and believe it or not, it's not all fun and games in France and Germany, either. Just ask any farmer who has to compete with the much cheaper produce from Poland (spoiler alert: it's basically impossible without resorting to slave labour or subsidies for small organic farms). Or the people who work in factories who get told that their wages have to be kept down in order to remain "competitive" (Germany has some of the lowest wages in Western Europe). The EU isn't popular with everyone here, either, and there's a reason for that.

    But scrapping the EU isn't the answer. For all the bureaucratic nightmares that it presents, it's been a huge force of stability and peace over the last few decades (in the form of both the EEC and the EU). It has also offered a lot of support in terms of subsidies for regional heritage products, arts and culture, has been a fairly instrumental force in the realm of health and safety (the EU's stance is very conservative on foods and drugs, which I generally appreciate), and has done a lot to promote worker's rights across borders.

    I (and a lot of other EU-critical EU supporters, ha) think that the answer has to be restoring more power to regions (not countries - regions within countries...this is Europe. Saxony is a world away from Bayern, etc) and offering more support to small businesses, small farmers and small producers so that they can better compete across the common market against their larger competitors. Oh, and fixing the tax loopholes, because, yikes.

  10. #20
    Lord Contrarian Denarius's Avatar
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    Re: what's happening in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by DanieMarie View Post
    the answer has to be restoring more power to regions (not countries - regions within countries...this is Europe. Saxony is a world away from Bayern, etc) and offering more support to small businesses, small farmers and small producers so that they can better compete across the common market against their larger competitors.
    That's the thing though, multi-national corporations out-compete small businesses and drive down wages largely due to internationalism.

    Start up or move to somewhere with low corporate tax rate, manufacture and/or source from places with cheap labor and lax regulation, hire non-union migrant workers, then flood the markets with cheap goods because there's little to no protectionism.

    If they had to hire local, union, workers. Use local resources, importing only when necessary. Manufacture locally. Be subject to local taxation. A lot of the advantages they have evaporate. Combine that with doing whatever possible to reduce their influence over government policy, and megacorps will collapse under their own weight. Something I see as necessary and desirable.

    In other words, if I had my way the post-Brexit chaos and market instability would be tame. Global markets are fundamentally corrupt, we should burn it to the ground and salt the earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by thalassa View Post
    they've effectively changed the definition of the term. Because words evolve.
    Like how "literally" now means "figuratively?" Evolution of words is one thing, but I'm just annoyed at how words get muddy and indistinct over time. Especially political terminology. I fail to see how becoming more vague, arcane, loaded with baggage, and utterly divorced from etymology is "evolution."

    The left-right implications are annoying too, because reactionary is exactly the word to describe a lot of the political discussion post-Brexit. As has been pointed out, leftist reaction.

    Maybe I'm just been conservative and/or reactionary when it comes to language.
    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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