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Thread: what's happening in the UK

  1. #21
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: what's happening in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Denarius View Post
    .[/I]



    Like how "literally" now means "figuratively?" Evolution of words is one thing, but I'm just annoyed at how words get muddy and indistinct over time. Especially political terminology. I fail to see how becoming more vague, arcane, loaded with baggage, and utterly divorced from etymology is "evolution."

    [/I]Maybe I'm just been conservative and/or reactionary when it comes to language.

    The problem is that people think that evolution is directional...that there is a hierarchy, and that each generational change is good somewhere "higher"...dare I say, progressive...

    Evolution is just change.
    Last edited by thalassa; 06 Jul 2016 at 16:33.
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  2. #22
    Lord Contrarian Denarius's Avatar
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    Re: what's happening in the UK

    Change that isn't for the better, is for the worse.
    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

  3. #23
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: what's happening in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Denarius View Post
    Change that isn't for the better, is for the worse.
    Not necessarily. History is a long game, from which the outcome isn't definitive for decades, sometimes more.
    “You have never answered but you did not need to. If I stand at the ocean I can hear you with your thousand voices. Sometimes you shout, hilarious laughter that taunts all questions. Other nights you are silent as death, a mirror in which the stars show themselves. Then I think you want to tell me something, but you never do. Of course I know I have written letters to no-one. But what if I find a trident tomorrow?" ~~Letters to Poseidon, Cees Nooteboom

    “We still carry this primal relationship to the Earth within our consciousness, even if we have long forgotten it. It is a primal recognition of the wonder, beauty, and divine nature of the Earth. It is a felt reverence for all that exists. Once we bring this foundational quality into our consciousness, we will be able to respond to our present man-made crisis from a place of balance, in which our actions will be grounded in an attitude of respect for all of life. This is the nature of real sustainability.”
    ~~Llewellyn Vaughan-Lee

    "We are the offspring of history, and must establish our own paths in this most diverse and interesting of conceivable universes--one indifferent to our suffering, and therefore offering us maximal freedom to thrive, or to fail, in our own chosen way."
    ~~Stephen Jay Gould, Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of History

    "Humans are not rational creatures. Now, logic and rationality are very helpful tools, but there’s also a place for embracing our subjectivity and thinking symbolically. Sometimes what our so-called higher thinking can’t or won’t see, our older, more primitive intuition will." John Beckett

    Pagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible

  4. #24
    PF Ordo Hereticus MaskedOne's Avatar
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    Re: what's happening in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Denarius View Post
    Change that isn't for the better, is for the worse.
    The list of fields where this assertion is at best subjective isn't precisely short so do you want to apply it somewhere specific?

    Otherwise, shrug, I start most of my chess games against a certain man with g3 or Nf3. Tomorrow (hypothetically, since neither of our current games end tonight and I don't what I'm starting with in the next one till the next one), I'll start with d4. I'm familiar enough with both positions to play roughly equally from both and my opponent routinely defeats me in both. How exactly is switching to d4 tomorrow going to be worse for either one of us? He still has a 95% chance of kicking my ass and there is still a roughly 5% chance that he'll make an error that I can exploit to turn things.
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    Yoda: Dark Rendezvous

    "But those men who know anything at all about the Light also know that there is a fierceness to its power, like the bare sword of the law, or the white burning of the sun." Suddenly his voice sounded to Will very strong, and very Welsh. "At the very heart, that is. Other things, like humanity, and mercy, and charity, that most good men hold more precious than all else, they do not come first for the Light. Oh, sometimes they are there; often, indeed. But in the very long run the concern of you people is with the absolute good, ahead of all else..."

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  5. #25
    lady sings the blues DanieMarie's Avatar
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    Re: what's happening in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Denarius View Post
    That's the thing though, multi-national corporations out-compete small businesses and drive down wages largely due to internationalism.

    Start up or move to somewhere with low corporate tax rate, manufacture and/or source from places with cheap labor and lax regulation, hire non-union migrant workers, then flood the markets with cheap goods because there's little to no protectionism.

    If they had to hire local, union, workers. Use local resources, importing only when necessary. Manufacture locally. Be subject to local taxation. A lot of the advantages they have evaporate. Combine that with doing whatever possible to reduce their influence over government policy, and megacorps will collapse under their own weight. Something I see as necessary and desirable.

    In other words, if I had my way the post-Brexit chaos and market instability would be tame. Global markets are fundamentally corrupt, we should burn it to the ground and salt the earth.



    Like how "literally" now means "figuratively?" Evolution of words is one thing, but I'm just annoyed at how words get muddy and indistinct over time. Especially political terminology. I fail to see how becoming more vague, arcane, loaded with baggage, and utterly divorced from etymology is "evolution."

    The left-right implications are annoying too, because reactionary is exactly the word to describe a lot of the political discussion post-Brexit. As has been pointed out, leftist reaction.

    Maybe I'm just been conservative and/or reactionary when it comes to language.
    The EU *does* have the potential to help even the playing field, though. In some fields, it already does this. Regions that produce specialty heritage products (think Champagne and the like...basically if it's a European product that is named after its region, it probably falls under this) get a lot of benefits in the form of funding and protection from the EU. There are also lots of grants that go to arts organisations to help them stay afloat in the face of the global entertainment industry. The key is to extend that further.

    The EU can choose which producers and businesses get funding and which do not. I think cutting funding to large corporate operations would be really helpful and would help even the playing field for smaller players.

    One of the huge reasons a lot of people supported the "Leave" campaign is the funding that the UK sends over to the EU. But this issue is that this funding actually goes back to EU countries in a lot of ways. The UK tends to reap fewer benefits than a lot of other countries as EU funding tries its best to be somewhat progressive (allocating more funds to poorer countries and all that), but a big reality is that a lot of organisations and businesses in the UK simply do not apply for funding as often as continental ones do. There was an article in the Guardian a few years ago (https://www.theguardian.com/culture-...k-applications) that outlined that, even though UK arts and culture organisations are among the most successful applicants for EU grants, UK organisations make up a much smaller part of overall applications compared to a lot of other countries. Basically, the benefits are there for them, but they're not taking advantage of them. I think another BIG problem within the EU is that a lot of people just aren't aware of what the EU does and how it can benefit them. That's not to say that there aren't major issues, but I think understanding it better would be a huge help.

    The other reality is that even non-EU countries have to compete with the EU. Switzerland and Norway manage it well, but it can still be a challenge. The other thing to consider about those countries though is that they have *never* been a part of the EU. The UK is in a different position. A lot of businesses are based there to reap the benefits of being an EU country. When the UK exits the EU, those businesses will no longer be eligible for those benefits. So, those businesses will likely leave. There are already a lot of negotiations going on between companies and other EU countries to see who can entice what to base themselves in their countries. If the EU started extending fewer benefits to larger companies, perhaps some of this wouldn't happen, but there are still side benefits that will always be there for any company based in the EU.

    Taxation issues aren't really going to go away by leaving the EU. The EU actually has a lot of potential to solve these issues in that it could break down a lot of barriers to transparency between countries and negotiate tax rules that benefit everyone (ie. no more tax havens in Luxembourg...why oh why is this still legal??)

  6. #26
    Lord Contrarian Denarius's Avatar
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    Re: what's happening in the UK

    In my mind, there is nothing that the EU can do that individual nations cannot. As it stands, I have not been convinced that it is anything other than a way to subvert democracy and nationalism. Values that I believe in, strongly.

    As far as I am concerned, it is trying to be a happy medium between the USSR and the UN. In other words skirting the line between authoritarian imperialism and utter irrelevancy.

    That's not even getting into how I find it fundamentally deleterious to national security, culture, and non-international (and non-corporate) commerce.
    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

  7. #27
    Bronze Member iris's Avatar
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    Re: what's happening in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by Denarius View Post
    In my mind, there is nothing that the EU can do that individual nations cannot. As it stands, I have not been convinced that it is anything other than a way to subvert democracy and nationalism. Values that I believe in, strongly.

    As far as I am concerned, it is trying to be a happy medium between the USSR and the UN. In other words skirting the line between authoritarian imperialism and utter irrelevancy.

    That's not even getting into how I find it fundamentally deleterious to national security, culture, and non-international (and non-corporate) commerce.
    I think, maybe, your feelig of how small some of these 'nations' are is off. We're not american sized. Really, the entire population of my country fits nicely in paris... there's a limit to what a tiny country can do on its own. Working with others is necessary, and the EU has done lots of good, has lots of potential.
    personally I think nationalism is... silly? Sure, love your country. But we live in an international world, we can't just throw that away. Even if we wanted to, it's too late. Better learn to love other cultres equally.
    and... the USSR collapsed in 1991 if I'm not mistaken.

    This is just my personal feeling, but I don't think you fully understand the role that the EU plays. It's not perfect, far from it. They've done some stypid stuff. There are people running it that weren't all elected by the public. But you cannot call it irrelevant if you understand every aspect of it. I don't myself. But I know enough to realize that our farmers would be a lot worse off without the help they get. It givesme the right to work and study in another european country without problems, just as they can... not a bad thing for me. Maybe because I believe a united world is better than 'each to their own'. We have a clause in our membership that means we have our own currency, there are a few other exceptions to the general rules... because we said no, we don't want that. Eu isn't the big bully making the small countries dance as it pleases, we actually have a say...
    but don't mind my rantings .Danie makes some good points.
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  8. #28
    Lord Contrarian Denarius's Avatar
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    Re: what's happening in the UK

    I'm not saying be isolationist, I'm just saying that you can accomplish all of that through democracy and as sovereign nations. There's nothing stopping you from having open borders, giving and receiving foreign aid, having an international currency, or whatever... except democracy, people like me having a fair say in how their countries are run.
    Last edited by Denarius; 07 Jul 2016 at 02:10.
    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

  9. #29
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: what's happening in the UK

    Much of the problem is that Wealth is considered more important than the care and concern for our brothers and sisters,and that all life is sacred. The saying "For the love of money is the root of all evil" hits at the very core of why humans neglect the well being of others.
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  10. #30
    lady sings the blues DanieMarie's Avatar
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    Re: what's happening in the UK

    Quote Originally Posted by iris View Post
    I think, maybe, your feelig of how small some of these 'nations' are is off. We're not american sized. Really, the entire population of my country fits nicely in paris... there's a limit to what a tiny country can do on its own. Working with others is necessary, and the EU has done lots of good, has lots of potential.
    personally I think nationalism is... silly? Sure, love your country. But we live in an international world, we can't just throw that away. Even if we wanted to, it's too late. Better learn to love other cultres equally.
    and... the USSR collapsed in 1991 if I'm not mistaken.
    Pretty much. It would be great if each country could do it on its own, but other than maybe Germany, most have to compete with superpowers. We can't just undo globalisation overnight. A country like Italy and especially like Poland would have a lot of trouble competing with, say, China. Within the EU, they have to compete with big players like Germany, but at least they also get support from said big players.


    In general and not in response to iris, some other things I think more people (even a lot of people in EU countries) need to consider:

    -Yes, the EU can be undemocratic in some ways, but in other ways, it works more or less like a parliamentary democracy. Each country elects representatives to the EU parliament based on its own electoral system (eg the UK keeps its first past the post system, Portugal keeps its representative system based on electoral lists, and Germany keeps its hybrid system that uses both). The issue is that so, so few people vote in EU elections. They actually mean something and can actually affect our lives, but the turnout is abysmal. You can't not vote at all and then complain that there is no democracy.

    -At some point I think unions were mentioned here, but I can't remember who and I don't feel like sorting through three pages of threads to find it. I'd like to point out that a lot of EU countries still have very strong unions (Germany is one). The UK has incredibly weak unions, but it didn't used to. However, it wasn't the EU that eroded British unions; it was 30 years of Tory and New Labour policy. A lot of the same people who are currently arguing against the EU are the same people who think union busting was a great point in British history.
    Last edited by DanieMarie; 07 Jul 2016 at 10:26.

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