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    Ideas don't die.

    Hello, Sean here.

    It's been a while since I started a thread. Too bad it is on a slightly sad note.

    Yesterday at 23:45, the Day of the Bastille (some sort of French independence day), a man drove a truck into the crowd that was gathered to spectate the fireworks. At least 80 dead. Pursuit with police lasts 2km and ended in a brief bullet exchange. The man was shot by the police and was unable to do any harm with his gun.

    This guy had an idea. An idea stimulated by the Islamic State. According to french investigations, there were other people involved probably, who had the same idea.

    We can bomb their bases, send troops to kill theirs, try to hunt down their thinking heads... But we cannot kill the idea. We cannot kill an ideology. The only way to fight an idea is with our own. But there will always be terrorist acts, even if we destroy extremist organisations, their ideas will still live on.

    How can we fight terrorism, not their organisation, not their members, but their ideas?

    Check out my blog! The Daily Satanist

    #2
    Re: Ideas don't die.

    I think, by doing everything in our power to educate the next generation. Make sure that hateful idea doesn't spread to the children, try to show them that violence isn't a sollution, and that they will find good people everywhere if they look... for the mind where it has already festered it's too late, violence is the only language they understand, but we can't let it become the only one we speak...

    And my dad just pointed something out that's important to remember. A lot of people died, but look at how many survived. It's terrifying because it's close to home, but much worse happens almost daily where they're from... that should scare us as much, because too many young minds grow up in a world where that is the norm. That's what really needs to change.

    That being said, I hope you and everyone you know are alright Sean...
    My husbands cousin was there, but she's fine.
    You remind me of the babe
    What babe?
    The babe with the power
    What power?
    The Power of voodoo
    Who do?
    You do!
    Do what?
    Remind me of the babe!

    Army of Darkness: Guardians of the Chat

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      #3
      Re: Ideas don't die

      Originally posted by SeanRave View Post
      How can we fight terrorism, not their organisation, not their members, but their ideas?
      Good question.

      There are answers, but they are not satisfying...

      There will always be those who will attempt to get what they want through violence. They will always appear to have the biggest impact because violence is sudden, explosive, and highly visible.

      Others will try to get what they want peacefully. They will always appear to have the least impact because non-violence is slow, gentle, and highly subtle.

      To fight against violent ideas, begin by avoiding encouraging violence - in others, and in yourself - and hang on for a bad ride on a bad road that will go on for a long time to a place that will never be reached.
      Last edited by B. de Corbin; 15 Jul 2016, 00:35.
      Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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        #4
        Re: Ideas don't die.

        Originally posted by iris View Post
        I think, by doing everything in our power to educate the next generation. Make sure that hateful idea doesn't spread to the children, try to show them that violence isn't a sollution, and that they will find good people everywhere if they look... for the mind where it has already festered it's too late, violence is the only language they understand, but we can't let it become the only one we speak...
        I think that's important to remember. Also, sometimes the violence is homegrown. People grow up in marginalized immigrant communities on this side of the world and grow up resentful of the country where they live (even if they were born there). They latch onto extremist ideologies because they speak to those resentments. The attitudes that the far-right are taking on are only going to make those problems worse, not better. Division is making these problems fester and grow, and it's not going to fix them. Education and inclusion are the better options for sure.

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          #5
          Re: Ideas don't die.

          Society is held together with the illusion of limitation imposed by law, but is really held together by the collective force of shame imposed by the disapproving glares of little old ladies like my great aunt Ruby and my 7th grade music teacher Mrs. Osceola Mueller.
          For most people, the values instilled by society are reflected in law--sure, there are always those that want a little bit more or less here or there, or sometimes a lot more here or there, but for the most part, the law reflects a codification of how we can all get along by sanding out the edges where we come together--ensuring fair play in employment, safer driving on the highway, clean air ND water. And while many people, if not most, just want to do the best for themselves and their families without causing damage to another and their family, many of them are unequipped to analyze all the issues and minutia of policy and politics and health care and foreign policy and economics and...you get the picture.

          But.

          There will always be those individuals that (rightly or wrongly) feel that they have been trampled by society, by history, by the law. Some of them will react within the confines of society and the Law--pushing the edges ever outward, one small, shove at a time, creeping millimeter after millimeter...bending humanity towards justice and inclusion.

          If there is anything that I believe as a creed, it is that Dr. Martin Luther King and Rev. Timothy Parker are right (and I paraphrase)...the moral arc of the universe bends slowly and slightly,but it bends towards justice. And it does so by more people sitting on it than trying to push it the other way. If you bend it too fast, it's gonna snap back, or even break, and the long term gains will be a major short term or maybe not so short) loss.

          There will always be those who feel marginalized (rightly or wrongly) somehow that will lashout against society and the law. And the best way to fight them is to live as if they are no threat at all. To keep living and loving. To keep the arc bending towards justice.

          Because the alternative is to be like them. And while fighting fire with fire can be a strategy (firefighters use it with some success), generally speaking all you get is more fire...and more destruction.
          Last edited by thalassa; 15 Jul 2016, 01:33.
          Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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            #6
            Re: Ideas don't die.

            Originally posted by thalassa View Post
            the best way to fight them is to live as if they are no threat at all. To keep living and loving. To keep the arc bending towards justice.

            Because the alternative is to be like them. And while fighting fire with fire can be a strategy (firefighters use it with some success), generally speaking all you get is more fire...and more destruction.
            I can agree that going into their countries and killing their civilians is not the solution, regardless of how much Bush and Obama seem to think so, but that is not the only way that you fight that.

            Properly integrating current migrants, and properly vetting future migrants. Infiltrating mosques and arresting people who incite violence. Shutting down weapon trafficking, funding, travel, migration, and support lines to and from radical Islamic states.

            Also, yes, education and inclusion. Integration is important as well. Living in a Muslim enclave, with it's own legal system and society, is not integration.
            Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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              #7
              Re: Ideas don't die.

              Humans,can't live with them,can't seem to find a happy medium..Oh,and a lot of crazy is afoot.
              MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

              all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
              NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
              don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




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                #8
                Re: Ideas don't die.

                Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                Also, yes, education and inclusion. Integration is important as well. Living in a Muslim enclave, with it's own legal system and society, is not integration.
                Accepting the fact that not everybody wants to be you, think like you, feel like you, act like you, live like you, though, and respecting them despite it, is.
                Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                  #9
                  Re: Ideas don't die.

                  Originally posted by B. de Corbin View Post
                  Accepting the fact that not everybody wants to be you, think like you, feel like you, act like you, live like you, though, and respecting them despite it, is.
                  Exactly. Which is against the teachings of radical Islam. Which is entirely the point I was making. Muslim boarding school bans students from meeting outsiders. Gay asylum seekers face threat from fellow refugees. Muslim migrants fan European antisemitism. Cruelty in the Quran.

                  Acceptance and tolerance has to go both ways.
                  Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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                    #10
                    Re: Ideas don't die.

                    Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                    Exactly. Which is against the teachings of radical Islam. Which is entirely the point I was making. Muslim boarding school bans students from meeting outsiders. Gay asylum seekers face threat from fellow refugees. Muslim migrants fan European antisemitism. Cruelty in the Quran.

                    Acceptance and tolerance has to go both ways.
                    Yes. I assume that you also have a problem with the Amish, Mormons, Hassidic Jews, tribal Native Americans (those dudes actually DO have officially recognized countries-within-a-country), and so on, and so on, and so on...
                    Every moment of a life is a horrible tragedy, a slapstick comedy, dark nihilism, golden illumination, or nothing at all; depending on how we write the story we tell ourselves.

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                      #11
                      Re: Ideas don't die.

                      Though, living in Europe, I have to say that a lot of the international media makes a LOT of things up when it comes to "no go zones" and "sharia" zones. Sharia law is not accepted by the federal law of any European country. And no-go zones don't exist, sorry. I can't really speak for Paris, but I've been there a lot and there wasn't a single place I didn't feel safe. France does have issues with integration, though, and a lot of immigrants tend to live crammed into really poor neighbourhoods. The issue with that, though, is that they don't live there because they want to - they live there because that is literally the only place they can afford to live. If France really wants to prevent its immigrant communities from segregation, it would come up with a better affordable housing policy. I've read the same things reported about London and Germany. I know a lot of people from London and go there a lot, and can safely report that these "no-go zones" aren't real. As for Germany, HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAH where do you guys come up with this? Really......
                      Last edited by DanieMarie; 15 Jul 2016, 03:21.

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                        #12
                        Re: Ideas don't die.

                        <.< I'm 9/32nds Native, and have lived my whole life on a reservation. (as a member of a federally recognized tribe)

                        We can be a bit intolerant of outsiders, but that is hardly comparable. Our laws are largely American, we think of ourselves largely as Americans, our values are largely American, and we are not killing people in the streets for being different than us or supporting those who do.
                        Last edited by Denarius; 15 Jul 2016, 03:29.
                        Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Re: Ideas don't die.

                          One of our politicians just said something clever. I know, I'm shoked. But he reminded people that what we're fighting here should not be called islam, rather he called it a 'death cult'... which... seems kind of spot on.

                          And Danie. I live next to what would probably be called a no go zone... it's fine. My husband works in one. Sure, there's trouble once in a while. The one where we live was bad a few years ago, but after a lot of effort to integrate it's actually a nice enough neighbourhood.
                          You remind me of the babe
                          What babe?
                          The babe with the power
                          What power?
                          The Power of voodoo
                          Who do?
                          You do!
                          Do what?
                          Remind me of the babe!

                          Army of Darkness: Guardians of the Chat

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Re: Ideas don't die.

                            Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                            <.< I'm 9/32nds Native, and have lived my whole life on a reservation. (as a member of a federally recognized tribe)

                            We can be a bit intolerant of outsiders, but that is hardly comparable. Our laws are largely American, we think of ourselves largely as Americans, our values are largely American, and we are not killing people in the streets for being different than us or supporting those who do.
                            I'm sorry, but you can't really compare the American reservation system to the marginalization of immigrant populations in Europe. Both are serious issues, but they're also completely different issues.

                            Generally, the right-wing American media knows nothing about Europe, so you really have to take what it says about us and our "immigration problems" with a grain of salt. Do we have immigration issues? Yes. Are they serious? Yes. Do some people in our immigration populations have extreme views? Yes. But the issues are always a lot more complex and they stem from different sources (often, systematic problems come into play a lot. Several people I am close to work in various departments that deal with this stuff and policy on integration all over Europe was TERRIBLE until about five years ago). But it is important to remember that if you see anything about "no-go zones" or "sharia law" in an article about Europe, it's probably a load of bull.

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                              #15
                              Re: Ideas don't die.

                              Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
                              But it is important to remember that if you see anything about "no-go zones" or "sharia law" in an article about Europe, it's probably a load of bull.
                              This. A thousand times.
                              You remind me of the babe
                              What babe?
                              The babe with the power
                              What power?
                              The Power of voodoo
                              Who do?
                              You do!
                              Do what?
                              Remind me of the babe!

                              Army of Darkness: Guardians of the Chat

                              Comment

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