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Thread: Ideas don't die.

  1. #1
    God in the baking Sean R. R.'s Avatar
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    Ideas don't die.

    Hello, Sean here.

    It's been a while since I started a thread. Too bad it is on a slightly sad note.

    Yesterday at 23:45, the Day of the Bastille (some sort of French independence day), a man drove a truck into the crowd that was gathered to spectate the fireworks. At least 80 dead. Pursuit with police lasts 2km and ended in a brief bullet exchange. The man was shot by the police and was unable to do any harm with his gun.

    This guy had an idea. An idea stimulated by the Islamic State. According to french investigations, there were other people involved probably, who had the same idea.

    We can bomb their bases, send troops to kill theirs, try to hunt down their thinking heads... But we cannot kill the idea. We cannot kill an ideology. The only way to fight an idea is with our own. But there will always be terrorist acts, even if we destroy extremist organisations, their ideas will still live on.

    How can we fight terrorism, not their organisation, not their members, but their ideas?

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    Silver Member iris's Avatar
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    Re: Ideas don't die.

    I think, by doing everything in our power to educate the next generation. Make sure that hateful idea doesn't spread to the children, try to show them that violence isn't a sollution, and that they will find good people everywhere if they look... for the mind where it has already festered it's too late, violence is the only language they understand, but we can't let it become the only one we speak...

    And my dad just pointed something out that's important to remember. A lot of people died, but look at how many survived. It's terrifying because it's close to home, but much worse happens almost daily where they're from... that should scare us as much, because too many young minds grow up in a world where that is the norm. That's what really needs to change.

    That being said, I hope you and everyone you know are alright Sean...
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    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    Re: Ideas don't die

    Quote Originally Posted by SeanRave View Post
    How can we fight terrorism, not their organisation, not their members, but their ideas?
    Good question.

    There are answers, but they are not satisfying...

    There will always be those who will attempt to get what they want through violence. They will always appear to have the biggest impact because violence is sudden, explosive, and highly visible.

    Others will try to get what they want peacefully. They will always appear to have the least impact because non-violence is slow, gentle, and highly subtle.

    To fight against violent ideas, begin by avoiding encouraging violence - in others, and in yourself - and hang on for a bad ride on a bad road that will go on for a long time to a place that will never be reached.
    Last edited by B. de Corbin; 15 Jul 2016 at 00:35.
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    lady sings the blues DanieMarie's Avatar
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    Re: Ideas don't die.

    Quote Originally Posted by iris View Post
    I think, by doing everything in our power to educate the next generation. Make sure that hateful idea doesn't spread to the children, try to show them that violence isn't a sollution, and that they will find good people everywhere if they look... for the mind where it has already festered it's too late, violence is the only language they understand, but we can't let it become the only one we speak...
    I think that's important to remember. Also, sometimes the violence is homegrown. People grow up in marginalized immigrant communities on this side of the world and grow up resentful of the country where they live (even if they were born there). They latch onto extremist ideologies because they speak to those resentments. The attitudes that the far-right are taking on are only going to make those problems worse, not better. Division is making these problems fester and grow, and it's not going to fix them. Education and inclusion are the better options for sure.

  5. #5
    sea witch thalassa's Avatar
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    Re: Ideas don't die.

    Society is held together with the illusion of limitation imposed by law, but is really held together by the collective force of shame imposed by the disapproving glares of little old ladies like my great aunt Ruby and my 7th grade music teacher Mrs. Osceola Mueller.
    For most people, the values instilled by society are reflected in law--sure, there are always those that want a little bit more or less here or there, or sometimes a lot more here or there, but for the most part, the law reflects a codification of how we can all get along by sanding out the edges where we come together--ensuring fair play in employment, safer driving on the highway, clean air ND water. And while many people, if not most, just want to do the best for themselves and their families without causing damage to another and their family, many of them are unequipped to analyze all the issues and minutia of policy and politics and health care and foreign policy and economics and...you get the picture.

    But.

    There will always be those individuals that (rightly or wrongly) feel that they have been trampled by society, by history, by the law. Some of them will react within the confines of society and the Law--pushing the edges ever outward, one small, shove at a time, creeping millimeter after millimeter...bending humanity towards justice and inclusion.

    If there is anything that I believe as a creed, it is that Dr. Martin Luther King and Rev. Timothy Parker are right (and I paraphrase)...the moral arc of the universe bends slowly and slightly,but it bends towards justice. And it does so by more people sitting on it than trying to push it the other way. If you bend it too fast, it's gonna snap back, or even break, and the long term gains will be a major short term or maybe not so short) loss.

    There will always be those who feel marginalized (rightly or wrongly) somehow that will lashout against society and the law. And the best way to fight them is to live as if they are no threat at all. To keep living and loving. To keep the arc bending towards justice.

    Because the alternative is to be like them. And while fighting fire with fire can be a strategy (firefighters use it with some success), generally speaking all you get is more fire...and more destruction.
    Last edited by thalassa; 15 Jul 2016 at 01:33.
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    Lord Contrarian Denarius's Avatar
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    Re: Ideas don't die.

    Quote Originally Posted by thalassa View Post
    the best way to fight them is to live as if they are no threat at all. To keep living and loving. To keep the arc bending towards justice.

    Because the alternative is to be like them. And while fighting fire with fire can be a strategy (firefighters use it with some success), generally speaking all you get is more fire...and more destruction.
    I can agree that going into their countries and killing their civilians is not the solution, regardless of how much Bush and Obama seem to think so, but that is not the only way that you fight that.

    Properly integrating current migrants, and properly vetting future migrants. Infiltrating mosques and arresting people who incite violence. Shutting down weapon trafficking, funding, travel, migration, and support lines to and from radical Islamic states.

    Also, yes, education and inclusion. Integration is important as well. Living in a Muslim enclave, with it's own legal system and society, is not integration.
    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

  7. #7
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: Ideas don't die.

    Humans,can't live with them,can't seem to find a happy medium..Oh,and a lot of crazy is afoot.
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    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    Re: Ideas don't die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denarius View Post
    Also, yes, education and inclusion. Integration is important as well. Living in a Muslim enclave, with it's own legal system and society, is not integration.
    Accepting the fact that not everybody wants to be you, think like you, feel like you, act like you, live like you, though, and respecting them despite it, is.
    Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

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  9. #9
    Lord Contrarian Denarius's Avatar
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    Re: Ideas don't die.

    Quote Originally Posted by B. de Corbin View Post
    Accepting the fact that not everybody wants to be you, think like you, feel like you, act like you, live like you, though, and respecting them despite it, is.
    Exactly. Which is against the teachings of radical Islam. Which is entirely the point I was making. Muslim boarding school bans students from meeting outsiders. Gay asylum seekers face threat from fellow refugees. Muslim migrants fan European antisemitism. Cruelty in the Quran.

    Acceptance and tolerance has to go both ways.
    Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

  10. #10
    The Gaze of the Abyss B. de Corbin's Avatar
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    Re: Ideas don't die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denarius View Post
    Exactly. Which is against the teachings of radical Islam. Which is entirely the point I was making. Muslim boarding school bans students from meeting outsiders. Gay asylum seekers face threat from fellow refugees. Muslim migrants fan European antisemitism. Cruelty in the Quran.

    Acceptance and tolerance has to go both ways.
    Yes. I assume that you also have a problem with the Amish, Mormons, Hassidic Jews, tribal Native Americans (those dudes actually DO have officially recognized countries-within-a-country), and so on, and so on, and so on...
    Those who have suffered understand suffering and therefore extend their hand.

    I can't do everything, but I can do something.

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