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Thread: Ideas don't die.

  1. #11
    lady sings the blues DanieMarie's Avatar
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    Re: Ideas don't die.

    Though, living in Europe, I have to say that a lot of the international media makes a LOT of things up when it comes to "no go zones" and "sharia" zones. Sharia law is not accepted by the federal law of any European country. And no-go zones don't exist, sorry. I can't really speak for Paris, but I've been there a lot and there wasn't a single place I didn't feel safe. France does have issues with integration, though, and a lot of immigrants tend to live crammed into really poor neighbourhoods. The issue with that, though, is that they don't live there because they want to - they live there because that is literally the only place they can afford to live. If France really wants to prevent its immigrant communities from segregation, it would come up with a better affordable housing policy. I've read the same things reported about London and Germany. I know a lot of people from London and go there a lot, and can safely report that these "no-go zones" aren't real. As for Germany, HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAH where do you guys come up with this? Really......
    Last edited by DanieMarie; 15 Jul 2016 at 03:21.

  2. #12
    Lord Contrarian Denarius's Avatar
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    Re: Ideas don't die.

    <.< I'm 9/32nds Native, and have lived my whole life on a reservation. (as a member of a federally recognized tribe)

    We can be a bit intolerant of outsiders, but that is hardly comparable. Our laws are largely American, we think of ourselves largely as Americans, our values are largely American, and we are not killing people in the streets for being different than us or supporting those who do.
    Last edited by Denarius; 15 Jul 2016 at 03:29.
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  3. #13
    Silver Member iris's Avatar
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    Re: Ideas don't die.

    One of our politicians just said something clever. I know, I'm shoked. But he reminded people that what we're fighting here should not be called islam, rather he called it a 'death cult'... which... seems kind of spot on.

    And Danie. I live next to what would probably be called a no go zone... it's fine. My husband works in one. Sure, there's trouble once in a while. The one where we live was bad a few years ago, but after a lot of effort to integrate it's actually a nice enough neighbourhood.
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  4. #14
    lady sings the blues DanieMarie's Avatar
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    Re: Ideas don't die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denarius View Post
    <.< I'm 9/32nds Native, and have lived my whole life on a reservation. (as a member of a federally recognized tribe)

    We can be a bit intolerant of outsiders, but that is hardly comparable. Our laws are largely American, we think of ourselves largely as Americans, our values are largely American, and we are not killing people in the streets for being different than us or supporting those who do.
    I'm sorry, but you can't really compare the American reservation system to the marginalization of immigrant populations in Europe. Both are serious issues, but they're also completely different issues.

    Generally, the right-wing American media knows nothing about Europe, so you really have to take what it says about us and our "immigration problems" with a grain of salt. Do we have immigration issues? Yes. Are they serious? Yes. Do some people in our immigration populations have extreme views? Yes. But the issues are always a lot more complex and they stem from different sources (often, systematic problems come into play a lot. Several people I am close to work in various departments that deal with this stuff and policy on integration all over Europe was TERRIBLE until about five years ago). But it is important to remember that if you see anything about "no-go zones" or "sharia law" in an article about Europe, it's probably a load of bull.

  5. #15
    Silver Member iris's Avatar
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    Re: Ideas don't die.

    Quote Originally Posted by DanieMarie View Post
    But it is important to remember that if you see anything about "no-go zones" or "sharia law" in an article about Europe, it's probably a load of bull.
    This. A thousand times.
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  6. #16
    lady sings the blues DanieMarie's Avatar
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    Re: Ideas don't die.

    Quote Originally Posted by iris View Post
    And Danie. I live next to what would probably be called a no go zone... it's fine. My husband works in one. Sure, there's trouble once in a while. The one where we live was bad a few years ago, but after a lot of effort to integrate it's actually a nice enough neighbourhood.
    Exactly. This is more or less the reality. I think no-go zones are probably bad wording choices in the first place and that's a lot of my issue with these pieces. It makes it sound like residents cower in fear when they have to go there, or that they won't go there at all. The reality is that there are poor neighbourhoods in some cities, but they're nothing close to real "no-go zones." I lived in Peckham for three weeks when I was doing exams in London, for example, and I never got stabbed or robbed. Not once. And I walked home alone in the dark on a regular basis. I used to live on the border of Neukolln here in Berlin before it got overrun by hipsters (Neukolln used to be a prominent immigrant neighbourhood. Now it's a prominent hipster neighbourhood) and I never got attacked. Since the immigrant population has been expanding in Berlin, I'd actually say that it's safer in a lot of the city, because the economy here is better than it used to be.
    Last edited by DanieMarie; 15 Jul 2016 at 03:41.

  7. #17
    Moderator Azvanna's Avatar
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    Re: Ideas don't die.

    Quote Originally Posted by Denarius View Post
    Also, yes, education and inclusion. Integration is important as well. Living in a Muslim enclave, with it's own legal system and society, is not integration.
    Quote Originally Posted by thalassa View Post

    There will always be those who feel marginalized (rightly or wrongly) somehow that will lashout against society and the law. And the best way to fight them is to live as if they are no threat at all. To keep living and loving. To keep the arc bending towards justice.

    Because the alternative is to be like them. And while fighting fire with fire can be a strategy (firefighters use it with some success), generally speaking all you get is more fire...and more destruction.
    Quote Originally Posted by DanieMarie View Post
    They latch onto extremist ideologies because they speak to those resentments. The attitudes that the far-right are taking on are only going to make those problems worse, not better. Division is making these problems fester and grow, and it's not going to fix them. Education and inclusion are the better options for sure.
    I love you guys so much! Lol. Here in this forum only do I feel like I'm mixing with sane people.

    Each of you has hit on points I feel strongly about. Education, inclusion, living as if the law-breaker is no threat and Denarius, I like what you said about integration. Integration is so important because as Thalassa pointed out, laws are made by societal norms. In Australia, I know there are pockets of cultures that tend to settle in the same areas, and then seem to almost claim the territory as theirs to live according to their customs. It's like being in a kind of cult... there are girls in Australia that are being "married" before they are even at the age of consent
    . It's possible imo because the integration is not there. There is no life outside of the well insulated culture.

    The thing is, Sean, not one of my friends are discussing how to combat the ideology behind the terrorists. There are heated arguments on Facebook and links to parties like the Australian Liberty Alliance where all people want to do is reduce the number of people identifying with a religion using the law. There's no way I could support something like that. My religious freedom hinges also on everybody else's. Thalassa, I like what you said about living as if the terrorists are no threat. This to me, is the only answer. To keep living according to my principles and keep believing the best in people. It's a brave thing to do if you live in a high threat area (I don't), but as you said, the alternative is to become just like them.

    I believe a bit of political and cultural introspection is needed now. What if these people who are committing acts of terror are disillusioned over something totally valid? I'm pretty sure all IS wants is world domination(?) but the people they are recruiting.. there must be some backstory to their lives and some principle that IS is spouting to draw people to that cause. I don't know what it could be, but to give your life up for it.. to not just allow someone to kill you for your faith but to actively seek your own death and the death of others.. this promise has to go beyond the reward of 40 virgins waiting for you in the afterlife, surely! Pride aside, hopefully we can do better by the next generation. It's possible to grow stronger through conflict.

  8. #18
    Supporter Hawkfeathers's Avatar
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    Re: Ideas don't die.

    I see that insulated culture here in the American midwest, too. It's definitely a human instinct. Big cities all have their Chinatown, Little Italy, etc., and out here are the gun collecting church goers.

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  9. #19
    Moderator Azvanna's Avatar
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    Re: Ideas don't die.

    Okay so apparently true religion and the apocalypse is what ISIS wants and 'sells' to its recruits... http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...-wants/384980/

  10. #20
    Live and learn anunitu's Avatar
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    Re: Ideas don't die.

    There is with ISIS,and also Christianity a bit the notion of Apocalyptic belief. For the Muslim there is the Mahdi,also known as the 12th Imam.

    See here.http://www.prophecynewswatch.com/art...nt_news_id=102

    It is sad ,as with all end of days beliefs,some want to force it to come to pass,rather than just believe it will come. This mind set also effects some christian groups. There was a movement here in the US that was sending money to Israel to sponsor a group to destroy the Temple of the rock.(Al Aqsa Mosque) to kick start a Christian prophesy.
    The rebuilding of the temple of Solomon .
    See here.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The other thing is the history of Europe and the Middle east. Muslims invaded Europe,and European Christians did the same to the middle east. Both committed Very horrendous acts against the other. Call it clash of cultures,or any other name,but the memories still cling in some manner even today. The Turkish genocide ,known as the Armenian Genocide. The Turks still will not accept that they committed Genocide. They were known as the Ottoman Empire then,and it comes up over and over in Europe.

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