Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Ideas don't die.

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #16
    Re: Ideas don't die.

    Originally posted by iris View Post
    And Danie. I live next to what would probably be called a no go zone... it's fine. My husband works in one. Sure, there's trouble once in a while. The one where we live was bad a few years ago, but after a lot of effort to integrate it's actually a nice enough neighbourhood.
    Exactly. This is more or less the reality. I think no-go zones are probably bad wording choices in the first place and that's a lot of my issue with these pieces. It makes it sound like residents cower in fear when they have to go there, or that they won't go there at all. The reality is that there are poor neighbourhoods in some cities, but they're nothing close to real "no-go zones." I lived in Peckham for three weeks when I was doing exams in London, for example, and I never got stabbed or robbed. Not once. And I walked home alone in the dark on a regular basis. I used to live on the border of Neukolln here in Berlin before it got overrun by hipsters (Neukolln used to be a prominent immigrant neighbourhood. Now it's a prominent hipster neighbourhood) and I never got attacked. Since the immigrant population has been expanding in Berlin, I'd actually say that it's safer in a lot of the city, because the economy here is better than it used to be.
    Last edited by DanieMarie; 15 Jul 2016, 03:41.

    Comment


      #17
      Re: Ideas don't die.

      Originally posted by Denarius View Post
      Also, yes, education and inclusion. Integration is important as well. Living in a Muslim enclave, with it's own legal system and society, is not integration.
      Originally posted by thalassa View Post

      There will always be those who feel marginalized (rightly or wrongly) somehow that will lashout against society and the law. And the best way to fight them is to live as if they are no threat at all. To keep living and loving. To keep the arc bending towards justice.

      Because the alternative is to be like them. And while fighting fire with fire can be a strategy (firefighters use it with some success), generally speaking all you get is more fire...and more destruction.
      Originally posted by DanieMarie View Post
      They latch onto extremist ideologies because they speak to those resentments. The attitudes that the far-right are taking on are only going to make those problems worse, not better. Division is making these problems fester and grow, and it's not going to fix them. Education and inclusion are the better options for sure.
      I love you guys so much! Lol. Here in this forum only do I feel like I'm mixing with sane people.

      Each of you has hit on points I feel strongly about. Education, inclusion, living as if the law-breaker is no threat and Denarius, I like what you said about integration. Integration is so important because as Thalassa pointed out, laws are made by societal norms. In Australia, I know there are pockets of cultures that tend to settle in the same areas, and then seem to almost claim the territory as theirs to live according to their customs. It's like being in a kind of cult... there are girls in Australia that are being "married" before they are even at the age of consent
      . It's possible imo because the integration is not there. There is no life outside of the well insulated culture.

      The thing is, Sean, not one of my friends are discussing how to combat the ideology behind the terrorists. There are heated arguments on Facebook and links to parties like the Australian Liberty Alliance where all people want to do is reduce the number of people identifying with a religion using the law. There's no way I could support something like that. My religious freedom hinges also on everybody else's. Thalassa, I like what you said about living as if the terrorists are no threat. This to me, is the only answer. To keep living according to my principles and keep believing the best in people. It's a brave thing to do if you live in a high threat area (I don't), but as you said, the alternative is to become just like them.

      I believe a bit of political and cultural introspection is needed now. What if these people who are committing acts of terror are disillusioned over something totally valid? I'm pretty sure all IS wants is world domination(?) but the people they are recruiting.. there must be some backstory to their lives and some principle that IS is spouting to draw people to that cause. I don't know what it could be, but to give your life up for it.. to not just allow someone to kill you for your faith but to actively seek your own death and the death of others.. this promise has to go beyond the reward of 40 virgins waiting for you in the afterlife, surely! Pride aside, hopefully we can do better by the next generation. It's possible to grow stronger through conflict.

      Comment


        #18
        Re: Ideas don't die.

        I see that insulated culture here in the American midwest, too. It's definitely a human instinct. Big cities all have their Chinatown, Little Italy, etc., and out here are the gun collecting church goers.
        sigpic
        Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

        Comment


          #19
          Re: Ideas don't die.

          Okay so apparently true religion and the apocalypse is what ISIS wants and 'sells' to its recruits... http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/...-wants/384980/

          Comment


            #20
            Re: Ideas don't die.

            There is with ISIS,and also Christianity a bit the notion of Apocalyptic belief. For the Muslim there is the Mahdi,also known as the 12th Imam.

            See here.http://www.prophecynewswatch.com/art...nt_news_id=102

            It is sad ,as with all end of days beliefs,some want to force it to come to pass,rather than just believe it will come. This mind set also effects some christian groups. There was a movement here in the US that was sending money to Israel to sponsor a group to destroy the Temple of the rock.(Al Aqsa Mosque) to kick start a Christian prophesy.
            The rebuilding of the temple of Solomon .
            See here.

            - - - Updated - - -

            The other thing is the history of Europe and the Middle east. Muslims invaded Europe,and European Christians did the same to the middle east. Both committed Very horrendous acts against the other. Call it clash of cultures,or any other name,but the memories still cling in some manner even today. The Turkish genocide ,known as the Armenian Genocide. The Turks still will not accept that they committed Genocide. They were known as the Ottoman Empire then,and it comes up over and over in Europe.

            Here
            MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

            all i ever wanted was a normal life and love.
            NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
            don't stop the tears.let them flood your soul.




            sigpic

            my new page here,let me know what you think.


            nothing but the shadow of what was

            witchvox
            http://www.witchvox.com/vu/vxposts.html

            Comment


              #21
              Re: Ideas don't die.

              This is a problem created by Imperialism and Middle East destruction. We keep talking about what we need to do about ISIS but what is the West going to do about the conditions it is responsible for in those countries. The genocide of millions. The destruction of countries. We can keep crying and somehow acting shocked that after a generation of intervention and destruction people are stiking back. And it may not be right and it may be horrible but how the fuck can we act surprised?

              I don't get it. We are going to continue the same course of "intervention" and no amount of education and inclusion will stop someone from hitting us back.

              Comment


                #22
                Re: Ideas don't die.

                Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                Acceptance and tolerance has to go both ways.
                But it has to start SOMEWHERE.

                And the only somewhere its going to start is with the people that recognize that it needs to happen and have the capacity to do so.
                Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
                sigpic

                Comment


                  #23
                  Re: Ideas don't die.

                  The four groups you name don't cause problems. They live by the law of the land. They don't kill people just because of their religious beliefs.
                  We don't have to be the same to get along but it is necessary to live with respect for the laws of the country in which on lives.
                  Saying it is OK, or necessary, to kill others whose beliefs are different is against the law in all but a few nations.
                  The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
                  I am his student and his partner. He is my guide and an ominous friend.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    Re: Ideas don't die.

                    Originally posted by ThePaganMafia View Post
                    This is a problem created by Imperialism and Middle East destruction. We keep talking about what we need to do about ISIS but what is the West going to do about the conditions it is responsible for in those countries. The genocide of millions. The destruction of countries. We can keep crying and somehow acting shocked that after a generation of intervention and destruction people are stiking back. And it may not be right and it may be horrible but how the fuck can we act surprised?

                    I don't get it. We are going to continue the same course of "intervention" and no amount of education and inclusion will stop someone from hitting us back.
                    I don't disagree with that, either. But living here and having seen a lot of issues arise in immigrant communities (a lot of terrorism has come from people living in Europe for quite a while and even people born over here are identifying with ISIS), I think inclusion and education goes a long way. Because if you have an education system that doesn't do a lot to teach people the local language (I can't speak for France, but in Germany students who used to speak German as a second language often got left behind in school), marginalize communities in ghetto-like settings and discriminate against people from different backgrounds so that they can't find meaningful work, you have a recipe for bad things. You're going to get a lot of frustrated young men with a lot of time on their hands. It's why riots happen from time to time, and ultimately it's why people who live on this side of the world are identifying with terrorist groups.

                    Continental Europe hasn't had anywhere near the same level of involvement in the Middle East as the US and the UK have (that's not to say we haven't had any, but it's -definitely- not to the same scale). And living here and seeing how communities get marginalized, I think how we treat our immigrants and people of colour at home plays a big role.

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Re: Ideas don't die.

                      Originally posted by Denarius View Post
                      Exactly. Which is against the teachings of radical Islam. Which is entirely the point I was making. Muslim boarding school bans students from meeting outsiders. Gay asylum seekers face threat from fellow refugees. Muslim migrants fan European antisemitism. Cruelty in the Quran.



                      Acceptance and tolerance has to go both ways.
                      This is the problem with the UK public school system (not the US one - that's different) - they're never allowed to meet boys. Or girls.
                      www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                      Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Re: Ideas don't die.

                        In the USA, parents who want that kind of isolationism will homeschool or send their kids to private schools.
                        sigpic
                        Can you hear me, Major Tom? I think I love you.

                        Comment

                        Working...
                        X