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    Transgender parents rights

    So, I legit know that the US sucks in this regard...but I don't think even we suck this much (some states might):

    They were living in a small village in Finland where no one was out. What about moving to somewhere more metropolitan? Unfortunately, even in Helsinki, the largest city, there were few resources and little understanding for trans folk.


    While anti-discrimination laws are on the books, discrimination is still a huge problem in everyday life. Finding housing, work and community are big challenges. And if Juliet wants to come out in her home country and change her name and gender marker, she must first be sterilized.


    Yes, forced sterilization is mandatory in Finland for trans peopleYou must also convert your marriage to a civil union, thus losing many of the legal benefits of married couples.Juliet would lose her rights as a parentAdopt her biological childblog source
    WTF.
    Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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    #2
    Re: Transgender parents rights

    Parental rights are (or should be) parental rights. Gender should have no place in marriage or parenting. As a matter of fact no government should be able to say how you should live your life or with whom as long as you are not interfering with the way others live their lives.
    The Dragon sees infinity and those it touches are forced to feel the reality of it.
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      #3
      Re: Transgender parents rights

      This is literally sickening. I...don't understand. At all.
      ~Rudyard Kipling, The Cat Who Walks By Himself

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        #4
        Re: Transgender parents rights

        When people are all like yeah, those Nordic countries have bicycle lanes and potted plants, health care and low crime, I call side eye. There's always some effed up human right's thing that just makes you go wtf.

        Always.


        Al.Ways.
        Satan is my spirit animal

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          #5
          Re: Transgender parents rights

          Humans always get things so screwed up..Lots of old religious bigotry hiding in the wings,just waiting to come out.
          MAGIC is MAGIC,black OR white or even blood RED

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          NO TERF EVER WE belong Too.
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            #6
            Re: Transgender parents rights

            "Caregiver" and "civil union" shouldn't carry any more or less rights than "parent" or "marriage," if they use the terms at all, which is a legitimate criticism. The adoption step is also unnecessary and ridiculous.

            The "forced sterilization" thing is a gross misrepresentation of the situation though. Basically, in order to be legally recognized as the opposite sex you must have undergone Sex Reassignment Surgery. Which itself requires a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder.

            You have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, that's where they chose. I see nothing wrong with that, it's not forcing anyone to do anything. It's just setting a requirement for legal recognition.

            As far as I'm concerned, if the state is going to recognize someone's sex then this is a fine standard for doing so in regards to GID. It shouldn't really be in the business of recognizing gender identity, however. I don't think it's a wise use of resources to validate someone's feeling that they are mayonnaise gendered or their sexual identity as an attack helicopter.

            Basically, gender identity doesn't and shouldn't matter legally. Those are social issues, not legal ones. Something for society to decide, not the state.
            Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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              #7
              Re: Transgender parents rights

              The "forced sterilization" thing is a gross misrepresentation of the situation though. Basically, in order to be legally recognized as the opposite sex you must have undergone Sex Reassignment Surgery. Which itself requires a diagnosis of Gender Identity Disorder.

              You have to draw a line in the sand somewhere, that's where they chose. I see nothing wrong with that, it's not forcing anyone to do anything. It's just setting a requirement for legal recognition.

              As far as I'm concerned, if the state is going to recognize someone's sex then this is a fine standard for doing so in regards to GID.
              So what organs are we going by here? Biological sex is a bit more complicated than an innie vs. outie (despite how our society views them, they are not primary sex organs, not sex determining organs). How are you checking that? Genetics isn't foolproof either. Sure intersex individuals are rare and it's not the same as being transsexual, but if a system isn't even equipped to handle the former, it sure as shit isn't capable of handling the latter.
              Wonderful Life: The Burgess Shale and the Nature of HistoryPagan Devotionals, because the wind and the rain is our Bible
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                #8
                Re: Transgender parents rights

                Originally posted by thalassa View Post
                ...if a system isn't even equipped to handle the former, it sure as shit isn't capable of handling the latter.
                What problems is the system having with them, exactly? People with ambiguous genitalia are rare, and sex chromosome abnormalities rarer still.

                We're talking about hundreds of people in a population of millions, and they face problems but not in terms of bureaucracy as far as I know. I couldn't find anything, anyway.
                Last edited by Denarius; 19 Jul 2016, 02:33.
                Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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                  #9
                  Re: Transgender parents rights

                  This is my thought...what the hell does it matter as long as the child is loved and is in a stable and safe environment? I have seen on the news plenty of things about children who are with their real parents who are not being taken cared of. Hell, there are parents that leave their children in the car to go and get high! WTF! Why make a big deal out of transgender parents when they care of and love the children they adopt? Their are hundreds of millions of children out there who need adopting and need loving homes and these a-holes are going to make an issue of people being transgender. Get your priorities straight. I can't stand judgmental people.
                  Anubisa

                  Dedicated and devoted to Lord Anubis and Lady Bast. A follower of the path of Egyptian Wicca.

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                    #10
                    Re: Transgender parents rights

                    While I highly disagree with the parental rights stuff, I have to echo Denarius about the 'forced sterilisation' thing. Gender reassignment, by it's very nature, sterilises you. Taking hormones for the gender that you are (as opposed to the one that you were born), reverses the effects of your natural hormones and renders you sterile. Having surgery to remove the gonads and reproductive organs you were born with so that your hormone therapy is less complicated, renders you sterile. The authors daughter, who is receiving hormone blocking therapy to stop her male puberty, is being sterilised by that very treatment. This isn't a human rights violation... it's part of the process of changing genders. EVERYWHERE DOES THIS. A person can't legally change genders without going through certain hormone therapy and surgical procedures that render you sterile. A transperson can't physically match their true gender without losing their fertility. And most transpeople that I know don't WANT their original fertility (though I know there are cases of FTM's who've gotten pregnant prior to testosterone therapy). Transpeople who also suffer from body dysphoria have terrible issues surrounding things like going to the toilet, having sex and menstruating (or not menstruating). Having the wrong gonads is a big issue. Having them removed is a GOOD thing in most cases. And if a couple wants to use their own ova/sperm for future children, most countries allow them to harvest and store prior to starting hormone therapy (though yes, it's expensive).

                    Now, where this gets screwy is that it means there's no allowance for third gender people. It means that in Finland, they only recognise binary male-female gender. So what do you do if you're third gender? But Finland isn't the only country that isn't equipped to handle third gender people. Even progressive countries who are changing the laws for transpeople are struggling with accommodating the entire gender spectrum.

                    The marriage vs civil union thing... that goes anywhere that gay marriage isn't legal. When you've legally changed genders, your pre-existing marriage becomes a same-sex union. So... yes it's stupid, and yes it should be changed, but it's not actually that unusual in the world at this point in time.

                    Here in South Australia, we have some old laws that they've never bothered to change, which make a few things about gender reassignment tricky. Like Finland, you have to have physically transitioned in order to be legally recognised as the opposite gender, which is fine, because after that you can get married, have kids etc etc and no one bats an eyelash. But you can't have a hysterectomy without a 'medical reason', so FTMs have to keep their uterus and ovaries until their doctor finds a way around that silliness. As a couple, you need to be married and one of you needs to be medically infertile to be able to get fertility assistance... ie as a couple with one trans person, you can't have kids until you are married (and you can't get married until you are all the way down the transition process, which takes years and lots of money). This is crazy because a single woman is allowed to get fertility treatment, but that same woman wouldn't be if she was in a defacto relationship with a transman. South Australia isn't anti-trans... it's just that in the process of trying to become pro-trans, it skipped a couple of the fine-print laws, which makes the whole process trickier than it seems.

                    Personally, I don't think this is about Finland. I don't even think this is about transpeople. This is about same sex couples. Finland obviously allows gender transition and protects transpeople from discrimination... this is a GOOD thing, because there are countries that don't do either. What it DOESN'T do is allow same sex marriage, or same-sex parenting. And the reality is that when you go through a gender transition and keep your original spouse, you become a same-sex couple. On the flip side of that, when you are in the process of transitioning and you have an opposite gender spouse, you are considered a same-sex couple until the transition is complete. Anywhere you can't be legally married or parent as a same sex couple is going to cause these exact same issues.

                    So this isn't about human rights violations for transpeople. It's about the laws not allowing same sex marriage or same-sex parenting.

                    It's about legalising a) same sex marriage and b) same sex parenting (currently, most countries who allow same-sex adoption allow one parent and one caregiver, not two parents). When we do that, we not only make life easier and more equitable for people in same-sex relationships, but we make it easier and more equitable for transpeople and for third gender people (because when the rights are the same no matter whether you're male or female, it then becomes easier to be both or somewhere in the middle... not perfect, but easier).
                    Last edited by Rae'ya; 19 Jul 2016, 19:35.

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                      #11
                      Re: Transgender parents rights

                      Originally posted by Rae'ya View Post
                      Even progressive countries who are changing the laws for transpeople are struggling with accommodating the entire gender spectrum.
                      What purpose is there in legally recognizing gender identity? As far as I am concerned that is a social issue and not a federal issue.
                      Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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                        #12
                        Re: Transgender parents rights

                        Because by legally recognizing gender identity, the country recognizes that those are groups of people whose rights also need to be protected.

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                          #13
                          Re: Transgender parents rights

                          They are already recognized by the state as people whose rights need to be protected, that's what citizenship is.
                          Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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                            #14
                            Re: Transgender parents rights

                            But clearly it's not working. By not recognizing trans people, we're basically forcing them into their birth genders. In order to be able to switch genders on your passport or reserve the right to use the "other" bathroom or be listed on a birth certificate as a child's mother instead of his/her father, you have to recognize that trans people exist as a group.

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                              #15
                              Re: Transgender parents rights

                              All things covered under identifying them based on sex. The Finnish passport is male and female, not masculine and feminine. Bathrooms are a matter of anatomic function, thus would (or should) be sex based.

                              I don't know about birth certificates in Finland, but I would assume it would be sex based. I don't remember ever seeing a "demi-boy" or "aerogender" box to tick.
                              Trust is knowing someone or something well enough to have a good idea of their motivations and character, for good or for ill. People often say trust when they mean faith.

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