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When did Celtic mythology become a pagan pathway in its own right?

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    When did Celtic mythology become a pagan pathway in its own right?

    I noticed that when reading about the development of pagan religions there seems to have been a primary focus on Roman, Greek, and Egyptian mythology and rituals at least in the pathways developed in Great Britain. I know that W. B. Yeats and several other during his time recorded the beliefs of the people of Ireland and used the Celtic gods and goddesses in their writings but for the most part it appears to be a minority in the developing organizations with pagan affiliation. This is at least the way it seems from what I have read and it was not until the 1980's does there seem to be a focus where celtic beliefs and mythology are predominate.

    I hope I am wrong and would like to know if there were earlier practices with Celtic beliefs as the primary source without all of the influence of Rome, Greece, and Egypt. If not was there a reason that the celtic beliefs were not more predominant especially in countries which were Celtic at least at one point.

    #2
    Re: When did Celtic mythology become a pagan pathway in its own right?

    Although I can provide no evidence, reason suggests that the massive influence of thee Classics, and the frankly brutal depiction of British paganism, probably played a large role in its lack of revival. Iron Age Britons were not seen as admirable. Far from it. It is only in recent years that TV, even schools, have started depicted prehistoric 'Celts' as anything remotely resembling noble.
    I'm not one to ever pray for mercy
    Or to wish on pennies in the fountain or the shrine
    But that day you know I left my money
    And I thought of you only
    All that copper glowing fine

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      #3
      Re: When did Celtic mythology become a pagan pathway in its own right?

      Just my personal opinion but I think it's due to the fact "Celt" is a language group not a pantheon where Greek, Roman, Egyptian are all full nation and pantheon in their own rights. It's only later that you see people really try to make "Celt" a pantheon vice recognizing it as a language group that was composed of many individual tribes / nations with individual beliefs. In that regard not very different from what is happening to Native American beliefs where people ignore there are something like 600 unique individual nations with their own gods, goddesses, spirits, etc and try to create a Native American Pantheon.

      Figure most people probably think mostly of Irish history and mythology when they consider "Celtic" stuff as that seems to be the bulk of what is out there. Yet bring up "P" and "Q" language groups much less the various tribes and their differences or which groups ran each area and you get a deer in the head lights look. Don't even touch upon that the common god / goddess group were not and did not apply to all celtic areas or tribal groups but get presented as being part of this all conclusive "Celtic" pantheon of divinities.

      Heck even Hellene, Roman or Egyptian practices and beliefs were not universal and the same all over but varied from region to region and time period to time period. Even the twelve main Olympians were not the same twelve in all parts of Hellas (Greece) at the same time.
      I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

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        #4
        Re: When did Celtic mythology become a pagan pathway in its own right?

        Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
        Just my personal opinion but I think it's due to the fact "Celt" is a language group not a pantheon where Greek, Roman, Egyptian are all full nation and pantheon in their own rights. It's only later that you see people really try to make "Celt" a pantheon vice recognizing it as a language group that was composed of many individual tribes / nations with individual beliefs. In that regard not very different from what is happening to Native American beliefs where people ignore there are something like 600 unique individual nations with their own gods, goddesses, spirits, etc and try to create a Native American Pantheon.

        Figure most people probably think mostly of Irish history and mythology when they consider "Celtic" stuff as that seems to be the bulk of what is out there. Yet bring up "P" and "Q" language groups much less the various tribes and their differences or which groups ran each area and you get a deer in the head lights look. Don't even touch upon that the common god / goddess group were not and did not apply to all celtic areas or tribal groups but get presented as being part of this all conclusive "Celtic" pantheon of divinities.

        Heck even Hellene, Roman or Egyptian practices and beliefs were not universal and the same all over but varied from region to region and time period to time period. Even the twelve main Olympians were not the same twelve in all parts of Hellas (Greece) at the same time.
        Even if you restrict it to Irish Celtic mythology and beliefs you still have the same lack of inclusion until very recently. They still had beliefs and mythology that was recorded even if altered by the monks who wrote the work down and although I do not think they had a pantheon like the Greeks or Romans they did have Tribal belief of a God of the society and a Goddess of the land as well as a very rich belief in the spirituality of the land. This was all but ignored by the developing pagan religions again until very late. Is this from a prejudice against the Irish and Highland Scottish beliefs?

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          #5
          Re: When did Celtic mythology become a pagan pathway in its own right?

          I think Iolo Morganwg predates W B Yeats.
          www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


          Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

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            #6
            Re: When did Celtic mythology become a pagan pathway in its own right?

            Originally posted by sionnach View Post
            Even if you restrict it to Irish Celtic mythology and beliefs you still have the same lack of inclusion until very recently. They still had beliefs and mythology that was recorded even if altered by the monks who wrote the work down and although I do not think they had a pantheon like the Greeks or Romans they did have Tribal belief of a God of the society and a Goddess of the land as well as a very rich belief in the spirituality of the land. This was all but ignored by the developing pagan religions again until very late. Is this from a prejudice against the Irish and Highland Scottish beliefs?
            I don't think it was specifically ignored though. You still had a lot of folkish practices that were handed down and stayed in a lot of remote areas or familial practices that were simply "Family". In that way I think it feel into the same thing that the Northern traditions did in that it wasn't part of the Western Civilizations classes taught in school as much more than a foot note. You also find that same discrimination in relationship to a lot of the disapora practices, root worker practices, Eastern European Practices, etc so it's not just one area. I think more and more became opened and exploited as books needed new material so they would sell. You can only bundle and rebundle the same old works so many times. Then you have to find new material or create new words. Consider how you went from poppets to constructs to servitors to egregore to tulpas for instance.

            If I were trying to lay the blame at any door it would have to be the school classroom door and the development of western civilization in general. There have been various revival periods across time where one area or another has gained a certain favor or reflection and inspired society but then fallen out of favor. Yet unless you really go back through history and read between the lines and the literature it's real easy to miss the revivals and such.

            I think you also have to lay blame at just what is "Celtic" and how it's become pretty generic in its own right within the pagan community. Cernunnos is tossed about like he was some global Celtic figure yet he's only found on like two items and if I recall correctly identified on only one of those. Yet to make it fit he's become a generic woodland god figure, now how "Celtic" is that?

            I wouldn't discount the Irish and the dislike towards them by the British in general either. Figure the crown went to great lengths to export them as prisoners and destroy them as a people. A lot of them ended up in the US and down under in the early years as indentured servants or out and out slaves / convicts. IN the US Irish women were breed to black slaves and the children sold off as slaves. That caused issues as mulatto children could be sold for less so some early laws were passed about that as it made it harder to sell black slaves at a higher cost. Heck of a by product or foot note to a sad state of history for sure for the Irish or Blacks. Yet the stories also spread about the Irish and to a degree the Scots though not as much.

            My personal ancestry has lots of Scots-Irish as many of the early migrants settled in the Blue Ridge mountains of Virginia as it was similar to the highlands. That and they had the public's impression of enjoying the fighting so made good fodder between the low land plantations and such and the Indians to the west. So you find them spread all along the Blue Ridge through the Carolina's, Virginia, Kentucky, Tennessee, pretty much all along both sides of the valleys the wilderness roads ran through.

            But as I said I think it owes lateness to western civilization and pagan writers in general. They wrote about and included things people in general were familiar with and sold books. Then when that stopped selling they went afield and tried to find new and unusual stuff to sell their works. History and culture was always waiting for them and had it all laid out and the populace in general made it easy for them to present it as if it was brand new.

            It's the same as when my children first heard a brand new band in the late 90's early 2000's and told me about this new band they heard. Couldn't believe it when I told them I used to listen to them back in the late 70's. Really surprised them when I pulled out my old 33 rpm's and played them and had many of the albums and they rocked out to them. It's there they just never bothered to look then looked shocked when it comes back around or ask why didn't they hear about it sooner. It was always there to be discovered all they had to do was listen or take the initiative or look in the stakes at the library in the history sections.

            - - - Updated - - -

            To answer your title question for me I really didn't start to see even the beginnings of a Celtic pagan pathway until about 2002. You heard whispers of a Celtic Wiccan pathway around the same time frame and some Druid fringe stuff after the book 21 Lessons of Merlin came out. The pagan forums I belonged to at the time didn't have a Celtic aspect to them and hardly ever even spoke about them. If we did it was more along the lines of the border influences between the Celtic and Teutonic / Germanic areas in Europe. Nordic things in general were of higher volume and discussion and what might be termed traditional witchcraft along with the notions of high magics (ceremonial) and low magics (folkish).

            Of course there was lots of witch wars and neo-Wicca versus Traditional Wicca and Self-initiation vs coven initiation or self-dedications. Well that and who was a Cowan.

            So I guess that long short answer should be about 2002 for me.
            I'm Only Responsible For What I Say Not For What Or How You Understand!

            Comment


              #7
              Re: When did Celtic mythology become a pagan pathway in its own right?

              Originally posted by Tylluan Penry View Post
              I think Iolo Morganwg predates W B Yeats.
              True, but he (like the rest of the early Druids) was a Christian. Philip Shalcrass (British Druid Order) told of a gathering as late as the 1980s at which some expressed surprise at seeing a stall selling books on paganism and magic! His estimate at the time was that about half of British Druids were pagans. Paganism only came into Druidry in the 1960s and a lot of early pagan druids (like Philip) had started as Wiccans, as that was all there was.

              Even Yeats was more concerned with the magical use of the myths: he and Moina Mathers once considered a Irish Golden Dawn temple (the Castle of Heroes) using Celtic symbolism instead of Cabalistic.

              Obviously the lack of pre-Christian documentation and the very localised nature of Celtic beliefs have made it more difficult to restore Celtic paganism without a great deal of inspired guesswork. But in New Age circles, being Celtic became the thing to do at the end of the last century. Caitlin Matthews declared "Celtic ethnicity is not necessarily a prerequisite [for Celtic spirituality]. We have entered a phase of maturity wherein spiritual lineage transcends blood lineage." As an ethnic Celt who worships Greek gods, who am I to disagree?
              Last edited by DavidMcCann; 27 Aug 2016, 09:13.

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                #8
                Re: When did Celtic mythology become a pagan pathway in its own right?

                the former archibishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, is/was a druid. So was Winston Churchill.
                Just thought I'd throw it in the mix!
                www.thewolfenhowlepress.com


                Phantom Turnips never die.... they just get stewed occasionally....

                Comment


                  #9
                  Re: When did Celtic mythology become a pagan pathway in its own right?

                  Originally posted by monsno_leedra View Post
                  I don't think it was specifically ignored though. You still had a lot of folkish practices that were handed down and stayed in a lot of remote areas or familial practices that were simply "Family". In that way I think it feel into the same thing that the Northern traditions did in that it wasn't part of the Western Civilizations classes taught in school as much more than a foot note. You also find that same discrimination in relationship to a lot of the disapora practices, root worker practices, Eastern European Practices, etc so it's not just one area. I think more and more became opened and exploited as books needed new material so they would sell. You can only bundle and rebundle the same old works so many times. Then you have to find new material or create new words. Consider how you went from poppets to constructs to servitors to egregore to tulpas for instance.

                  If I were trying to lay the blame at any door it would have to be the school classroom door and the development of western civilization in general. There have been various revival periods across time where one area or another has gained a certain favor or reflection and inspired society but then fallen out of favor. Yet unless you really go back through history and read between the lines and the literature it's real easy to miss the revivals and such.

                  I think you also have to lay blame at just what is "Celtic" and how it's become pretty generic in its own right within the pagan community. Cernunnos is tossed about like he was some global Celtic figure yet he's only found on like two items and if I recall correctly identified on only one of those. Yet to make it fit he's become a generic woodland god figure, now how "Celtic" is that?

                  I wouldn't discount the Irish and the dislike towards them by the British in general either. Figure the crown went to great lengths to export them as prisoners and destroy them as a people. A lot of them ended up in the US and down under in the early years as indentured servants or out and out slaves / convicts. IN the US Irish women were breed to black slaves and the children sold off as slaves. That caused issues as mulatto children could be sold for less so some early laws were passed about that as it made it harder to sell black slaves at a higher cost. Heck of a by product or foot note to a sad state of history for sure for the Irish or Blacks. Yet the stories also spread about the Irish and to a degree the Scots though not as much.

                  .
                  I agree with much of what you have said and you touched on what I think is one of the real problems. I believe there were two things in particular that inhibited the use of Celtic mythology and beliefs during the development of the modern pagan recovery. First, most of the recorded knowledge of the celts occurred with the Irish using the remaining poets of the pre-Christian religions and the early Christian Monks in Ireland. There certaintly was prejudice against the Irish Clans by the dominating Norman control and later by the Attitude of the English towards the Irish. This prejudice lasted well into the 1900s until Ireland finally got its independence. The second problem was that the Celts has a poetic approach with oral tradition and a society that emphisised the individual as apposed to the Greek and Roman which emphysized social order and organization with a prose and written tradition. The Greek, Roman and Egyptian were seen as more advanced to the developing English culture and the poetic individualistic approach with personification of the land and nature as seen as inferior. Any thoughts?

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